Page 16 | To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

NeedToChangeName · 2023-01-29T19:13:33+00:00

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530 Please read this news story And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

lifeturnsonadime · 02/02/2023 10:36

To clarify I can see anger, I'm angry. I'm angry that I keep being told that I must give up my rights to men who identify as women.

But aggression? I think you are getting that confused with robust argument.

antipodeancanary · 02/02/2023 10:38

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 09:34

I was comparing society’s early views on gay people with the current views on trans people so in that sense it’s not a false equivalence. It’s something different, you don’t understand it, it doesn’t feel right, so it must be wrong…

I don’t feel threatened by trans rights, and I genuinely don’t understand why it makes the likes of you and JK Rowling so very angry. What is it that scares you about making life easier for this small minority of people?

Also, I don’t think anyone, anywhere has argued that someone who has raped two women should be in women’s spaces, so stop with the sensationalism. The prison service needs to look into all aspects of a persons background and make a decision on where they go, surely that’s the case with any offender.

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What scares me is that women will be raped in prison, in hospital and in women's refuges. Pardon me for being so pearl clutchy.

NotBadConsidering · 02/02/2023 10:46

antipodeancanary · 02/02/2023 10:38

What scares me is that women will be raped in prison, in hospital and in women's refuges. Pardon me for being so pearl clutchy.

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Women have been raped in women’s prisons.

Women have been raped in hospitals.

Women have been raped in women’s refuges.

All by trans identified males.

What scares me is it happening again because people refuse to believe it happened the first time and/or don’t care about it.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/02/2023 10:54

What scares me is it happening again because people refuse to believe it happened the first time and/or don’t care about it.

They know and they don't care.

Because when it comes down to it everyone knows who the men are. So long as they get what they want it doesn't matter which women are hurt in the process.

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 11:04

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 09:34

I was comparing society’s early views on gay people with the current views on trans people so in that sense it’s not a false equivalence. It’s something different, you don’t understand it, it doesn’t feel right, so it must be wrong…

I don’t feel threatened by trans rights, and I genuinely don’t understand why it makes the likes of you and JK Rowling so very angry. What is it that scares you about making life easier for this small minority of people?

Also, I don’t think anyone, anywhere has argued that someone who has raped two women should be in women’s spaces, so stop with the sensationalism. The prison service needs to look into all aspects of a persons background and make a decision on where they go, surely that’s the case with any offender.

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I was comparing society’s early views on gay people with the current views on trans people so in that sense it’s not a false equivalence.

"It can't be a false equivalence because I'm comparing things!"

It’s something different, you don’t understand it, it doesn’t feel right, so it must be wrong…

Yes, since you aren't capable of reading even very clear and well reasoned posts, and just dismiss them as transphobia, that's why you insist that this is what we're saying and therefore making the false equivalence.

We are not concerned for these reasons. As you consistently fail to grasp, we are not concerned because they're trans, we are concerned because they're male. That's the risk factor, that's the defining point at which women need a sex based protection.

We object to other men with no criminal record in our spaces too. Like I said, my husband is no risk to women, but he doesn't belong in a female space either. And for some reason, he does not see that as an act of bigotry, or insist that it's because he's new and we are too thick to understand him.

Why can't you get this? It's really not difficult.

Also, I don’t think anyone, anywhere has argued that someone who has raped two women should be in women’s spaces

But if TWAW, why doesn't he belong there? A female prisoner, however violent, would be housed there with suitable safeguards without objection. So why are you making an exception for this person, if he's a woman?

You know the answer. Because he doesn't belong there. Because he is a man and men don't belong in women's spaces, even when they aren't double rapists. Although the absurdity and misogyny of the position is particularly clear when he is.

There's no way you don't realise this. I suppose the question is why you think throwing women's rights and safeguards under the bus somehow makes you a hero of progressiveness.

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 12:17

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 11:04

I was comparing society’s early views on gay people with the current views on trans people so in that sense it’s not a false equivalence.

"It can't be a false equivalence because I'm comparing things!"

It’s something different, you don’t understand it, it doesn’t feel right, so it must be wrong…

Yes, since you aren't capable of reading even very clear and well reasoned posts, and just dismiss them as transphobia, that's why you insist that this is what we're saying and therefore making the false equivalence.

We are not concerned for these reasons. As you consistently fail to grasp, we are not concerned because they're trans, we are concerned because they're male. That's the risk factor, that's the defining point at which women need a sex based protection.

We object to other men with no criminal record in our spaces too. Like I said, my husband is no risk to women, but he doesn't belong in a female space either. And for some reason, he does not see that as an act of bigotry, or insist that it's because he's new and we are too thick to understand him.

Why can't you get this? It's really not difficult.

Also, I don’t think anyone, anywhere has argued that someone who has raped two women should be in women’s spaces

But if TWAW, why doesn't he belong there? A female prisoner, however violent, would be housed there with suitable safeguards without objection. So why are you making an exception for this person, if he's a woman?

You know the answer. Because he doesn't belong there. Because he is a man and men don't belong in women's spaces, even when they aren't double rapists. Although the absurdity and misogyny of the position is particularly clear when he is.

There's no way you don't realise this. I suppose the question is why you think throwing women's rights and safeguards under the bus somehow makes you a hero of progressiveness.

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No I do not think I’m a hero of progressiveness, I just don’t have the same opinion as you, why is that so difficult for you? I was livid about the rape clause but I can’t get angry about this. I feel it’s being blown completely out of proportion - probably done on purpose by UK government and their MSM allies to undermine the Scottish Parliament.

Botw1 · 02/02/2023 12:20

@Clarabell77

You were livid about a rape clause for benefits but don't actually care about the actual risk of rape to female prisoners?

Sounds about right

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 12:29

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 12:17

No I do not think I’m a hero of progressiveness, I just don’t have the same opinion as you, why is that so difficult for you? I was livid about the rape clause but I can’t get angry about this. I feel it’s being blown completely out of proportion - probably done on purpose by UK government and their MSM allies to undermine the Scottish Parliament.

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No I do not think I’m a hero of progressiveness

Good, because you're not. You're a proponent of a dangerous ideology that has misogyny and homophobia at its heart and has to cast around for any reason other than the most obvious one as to why a man with a penis, testicle and propensity for rape belongs in a male prison. It's already been responsible for several rapes and sexual assaults that would not have happened without it.

Now repeat after me, dear.

It's not because they're trans, it's because they're male.

Good. Now try this:

The point of female spaces is that there are no males in them.

Well done. Now this:

Gay rights are not comparable because gay rights do not affect anyone's safeguards.

Nearly there. Now try:

I do not have the right to force women to accept males in their spaces without their consent.

Excellent. One more, and I know this one is hard because people have been using it to try to shut women up since the days of Eden:

Accusing women of Being Angry (TM) does not make them wrong.

Wonderful stuff. Take a gold star. They're the ones that are not silver stars.

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 12:32

Botw1 · 02/02/2023 12:20

@Clarabell77

You were livid about a rape clause for benefits but don't actually care about the actual risk of rape to female prisoners?

Sounds about right

You who would claim to be a feminist probably hadn’t even heard of the rape clause, does that sound about right?

I do care about the risk to female prisoners which is why I’ve stated in every single post that I totally agree on the fact that a convicted rapist shouldn’t be in a women’s prison. I don’t use that to vilify all trans women though.

MarshaBradyo · 02/02/2023 12:33

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 12:32

You who would claim to be a feminist probably hadn’t even heard of the rape clause, does that sound about right?

I do care about the risk to female prisoners which is why I’ve stated in every single post that I totally agree on the fact that a convicted rapist shouldn’t be in a women’s prison. I don’t use that to vilify all trans women though.

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I don’t think they should be vilified just not in female prisons.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/02/2023 12:33

I do care about the risk to female prisoners which is why I’ve stated in every single post that I totally agree on the fact that a convicted rapist shouldn’t be in a women’s prison. I don’t use that to vilify all trans women though.

Why should any male be allowed to be in the female prison estate?

Women don't and can't consent to this.

Any male who imposes himself on women's spaces is a predatory male.

Botw1 · 02/02/2023 12:35

@Clarabell77

No. Its not right

Im well aware of it. Don't vote tory. Didn't and don't agree with the introduction of the policy.

What an odd thought process to think you must be the only person to have heard of it or care about it.

Convicted rapists are not the only men who are a risk to women.

No one should want women to be put at risk by forcing them to give up female only spaces.

That has absolutely nothing to do with villifying trans people.

They shouldn't want women to be at risk either

lifeturnsonadime · 02/02/2023 12:37

I do care about the risk to female prisoners which is why I’ve stated in every single post that I totally agree on the fact that a convicted rapist shouldn’t be in a women’s prison

So when the rapist is released should he be allowed in other women's spaces, even rape crisis centres when he identifies as being a woman?

What is your cut off for a good trans woman. A male pedophile has just been released from the women's prison estate in Scotland, did they get that one wrong too? Or is it OK to put a transwoman who likes to sexually assault little girls in women's toilets in a women's prison?

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 12:38

I do care about the risk to female prisoners which is why I’ve stated in every single post that I totally agree on the fact that a convicted rapist shouldn’t be in a women’s prison. I don’t use that to vilify all trans women though.

But we aren't vilifying all trans women, any more than we are vilifying all men. We're simply saying that male people don't belong in a female prison. The same would be true of a man who's in for not paying his TV licence. It's a female space, end of.

It's just that some people don't understand this until they're confronted with a hulking double rapist claiming his right to be housed with females on account of his female identity.

You know he's not a woman because otherwise there'd be no objection to him being in a female prison with the appropriate safeguards for a violent female offender.

It's ridiculous that this is what it takes to make these people grasp the issue but hey, you're the one who keeps claiming not to understand anything.

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 12:40

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 12:29

No I do not think I’m a hero of progressiveness

Good, because you're not. You're a proponent of a dangerous ideology that has misogyny and homophobia at its heart and has to cast around for any reason other than the most obvious one as to why a man with a penis, testicle and propensity for rape belongs in a male prison. It's already been responsible for several rapes and sexual assaults that would not have happened without it.

Now repeat after me, dear.

It's not because they're trans, it's because they're male.

Good. Now try this:

The point of female spaces is that there are no males in them.

Well done. Now this:

Gay rights are not comparable because gay rights do not affect anyone's safeguards.

Nearly there. Now try:

I do not have the right to force women to accept males in their spaces without their consent.

Excellent. One more, and I know this one is hard because people have been using it to try to shut women up since the days of Eden:

Accusing women of Being Angry (TM) does not make them wrong.

Wonderful stuff. Take a gold star. They're the ones that are not silver stars.

Show quote history

Are you so used to reading Harry Potter gobbledegook that you can’t read and understand plain English? I must have repeated myself about 15 times - rapists shouldn’t be in women’s prisons.

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 12:41

But why not, if they are women? What makes them different to violent female offenders?

Happylittlechicken · 02/02/2023 12:43

so you are saying @Clarabell77, and do correct me if I’m wrong, that a transwoman belongs in womens spaces, and is a woman, unless they commit rape? So they can’t be women can they? Because even in a woman had committed the most heinous crime known to man, she would still be housed in a woman’s prison no question. So are transwomen women or are they not?

Botw1 · 02/02/2023 12:43

@Clarabell77

Males shouldn't be in female prisons.

Ever

Helleofabore · 02/02/2023 12:52

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 06:53

Please stop posting such transphobic posts on MN.

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Transphobia is a very serious accusation.

Would you care to be specific about what is transphobic here?

So everyone can see it too?

mbosnz · 02/02/2023 12:58

Whether a person in possession of a penis, is a rapist or not, has little to no bearing on just how concerning it is that people are saying that it's okay for them to be double bunked with women prisoners, at their mercy 23 hours out of 24 some days. Imprisoned in a small cell, with no privacy, not even for going to the toilet. With no means of escape if this person with a penis decides to assert their physical dominance in any way.

It is very concerning that people are saying that a person with a penis has a right to be in communal with women who have to then get naked and perform their ablutions with a person with a penis in the same room with them, potentially observing them, possibly doing the same.

It's a level of disempowerment and complete disregard for the privacy, the safety, and the dignity of women prisoners that should not go unchallenged, or accepted.

The state has a duty of care when it removes the freedom of women and puts them into a state penitentiary. It cannot abdicate this duty of care, to do its utmost to ensure the safety, both mental and physical, and dignity of women, by abrogating it in favour of prioritising a person's with a penis rights over and above those of women.

This is before you go into the statistics of how many women have been sexually assaulted and abused, physically assaulted and abused, emotionally assaulted and abused, by people with a penis, that are incarcerated.

RichardBarrister · 02/02/2023 13:02

Happylittlechicken · 02/02/2023 12:43

so you are saying @Clarabell77, and do correct me if I’m wrong, that a transwoman belongs in womens spaces, and is a woman, unless they commit rape? So they can’t be women can they? Because even in a woman had committed the most heinous crime known to man, she would still be housed in a woman’s prison no question. So are transwomen women or are they not?

There in lies the logic hole in the trans activists argument.

We can’t pick and choose which (male) trans people we believe and grant rights of access to women’s spaces - that would be discriminatory and unfair.

In society and making laws we do our very best to make them consistent and equally applied to everyone.

Being a woman isn’t a reward for good behaviour. It’s not an outfit and a wig.

We don’t get to pick and choose and nor should men.

nilsmousehammer · 02/02/2023 13:15

Lots of repetition of 'vilifying' trans people.

Do you mean 'saying no to any men in women's prisons at all'? or pointing out that the male TQ+ population does include abusers of women?

The problem with setting the line at 'convicted rapists'

are you ok with the unconvicted sex offenders? Because we know the problems with rates of conviction. My bar for acceptable level of collateral female damage to male feelings and choices is none. At all.
Rhona Hotchkiss has described the fear and distress of female prisoners with a male in these spaces whether or not the male is safe. We cannot be all caring about the needs of male TQ+ prisoners and ignore this bit: this would be sex based double standards that are unacceptably prejudiced against females. Which makes a bit of a nonsense then of saying these males should be in the female estate because they are just like the other women.
Women are saying no. Because this has been tried, and pushed to absolute breaking point, and they have now seen clearly what happens to women in the process. It's over. Sorry. But it was not women - or anyone remotely interested in women's rights - who broke it.

nilsmousehammer · 02/02/2023 13:17

Oh and 'lots of anger on this thread'

Are you seriously surprised?

I'm bloody furious at how women have been treated, and that things were allowed to get to the point of such utter, appalling abnegation of responsibility before anything was done. I am livid . Any women watching how women have been treated and not being angry about this blatant, sex discriminatory appalling disregard for women is missing a few key sandwiches from their picnic.

MarshaBradyo · 02/02/2023 13:17

nilsmousehammer · 02/02/2023 13:15

Lots of repetition of 'vilifying' trans people.

Do you mean 'saying no to any men in women's prisons at all'? or pointing out that the male TQ+ population does include abusers of women?

The problem with setting the line at 'convicted rapists'

are you ok with the unconvicted sex offenders? Because we know the problems with rates of conviction. My bar for acceptable level of collateral female damage to male feelings and choices is none. At all.
Rhona Hotchkiss has described the fear and distress of female prisoners with a male in these spaces whether or not the male is safe. We cannot be all caring about the needs of male TQ+ prisoners and ignore this bit: this would be sex based double standards that are unacceptably prejudiced against females. Which makes a bit of a nonsense then of saying these males should be in the female estate because they are just like the other women.
Women are saying no. Because this has been tried, and pushed to absolute breaking point, and they have now seen clearly what happens to women in the process. It's over. Sorry. But it was not women - or anyone remotely interested in women's rights - who broke it.

Society tried to reorganise in a way to benefit males / transwomen but women don’t want that. It’s to our detriment. So society will have to find another way to accommodate the men.

Botw1 · 02/02/2023 13:19

Exactly

Why shouldn't women be angry?

Women's rights are being eroded and they are being put at risk to placate men.

Why is it OK to be livid about the rape clause but not that?