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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

552 replies

NeedToChangeName · 29/01/2023 19:13

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

Please read this news story

And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it

The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Sugarfree23 · 01/02/2023 07:40

Massive fucking auto correct in there TRANSMEN ie women.

Hoppinggreen · 01/02/2023 08:31

I happily get undressed in front of my lesbian friends, I have even shared a hot tub with one.
I would be uncomfortable doing the same with a man I was related to, let alone one I wasn’t (except DH and DS of course).
It’s not about who is and isn’t attracted to me but the fact that I dint want to get naked in front of a man

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2023 08:42

I've been thinking about the hospital thing. About 18 months ago I was in hospital for 4 nights with a bad ankle break which required surgery. It was boiling hot. I hadn't had anything other than a paper towel wash for 4 days and I desperately wanted a shower. The only nursing staff able to help me with a shower was a man. He asked if I was OK with that and I was because I was so bloody desperate to be washed.

But here's the thing. I could consent.

If the same person was a trans woman I wouldn't a) have been asked the question and b) I would have been a bigot for refusing.

I'm sure I would not have felt comfortable being assisted by a male who didn't recognise my right to consent.

This is how trans women have power and control over women.

Yet at the same time they bleat that they are the most marginalised.

nilsmousehammer · 01/02/2023 10:19

Hoppinggreen · 01/02/2023 08:31

I happily get undressed in front of my lesbian friends, I have even shared a hot tub with one.
I would be uncomfortable doing the same with a man I was related to, let alone one I wasn’t (except DH and DS of course).
It’s not about who is and isn’t attracted to me but the fact that I dint want to get naked in front of a man

Quite.

It's a bit of a stretch to assume that every lesbian will fancy you, and lesbians don't tend to go for sexual aggression and sexual harassment of total strangers anyway!

Sexual aggression, sexual harassment and assault of total strangers is however common behaviour in males, to the point many women have experienced it. When a man is eyeing me up or getting too close in a crowded train carriage, or walking quicker to catch me up on an empty street, the last thing on my mind is 'does he fancy me?'. And I love a number of wonderful men in my family and friendship group - I would not be willing to get undressed in front of any of them.

It's ridiculous avoidance of reality to try and conflate the two, and the mad effort to conflate is all about enabling males at the expense of females. In this case actively enabling rapists and murderers at the expense of vulnerable women. There is not enough glue in the world to justify that.

YouSetTheTone · 01/02/2023 12:00

YDBear · 01/02/2023 03:26

Or a women’s changing room or toilet, for that matter. I sometimes wonder if all this stupidity over “trans rights” is because we are all too coy to use the word “penis.” “Trans women are women” sounds very progressive (popular among the luxury belief set). “These people with penises are women” sounds like obvious nonsense. It’s some outre idea of perceived gender that women don’t want in their ought-to-be-protected spaces. It’s penises pure and simple. If you have a penis you aren’t welcome whatever you identify as. And we should say so. And championing the rights of people with penises over those who lack them and feel threatened by them is surely the very definition of misogyny.

Absolutely. It’s almost unbelievable that people don’t widely recognise the utter rank misogyny from men like Lloyd Russell-Moyle and Owen Jones: ‘you women are BIGOTS because you don’t want men with penises in your single sex spaces. BITCHES!’ - their faces going red, veins pulsing with rage.

They will both pretend to look sad and shocked at high profile cases of VAWG though. As if they don’t see any kind of weird link between the dangers women face and women not wanting men with penises in their loos/ hospital wards/ prisons/ single sex groups etc.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 01/02/2023 12:12

@YDBear : "championing the rights of people with penises over those who lack them and feel threatened by them is surely the very definition of misogyny.".

Well said.

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 06:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sorry, dictatorial? In what way? What you’ve quoted her saying is basically trans woman don’t pose an inherent threat to women, well, they don’t, and to think they do is quite bigoted. It’s a bit similar to the “all refugees are terrorists” type thinking. She also said under no circumstances should the individual in question be allowed in a women’s prison - do you disagree with that?

We are currently under a UK law regarding this overall topic, with prison services having responsibility to assess on a case by case basis. So, why the vitriol towards Nicola Sturgeon?

And idiot? Well, I won’t go there..

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 06:53

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 15:16

Oh my.... the homophobia and misogyny that is now coming out on this thread.

Males! Males commit 99% of all sex crime in this and other western countries.

Lesbians have the exact same risk of committing sex crime as other FEMALES.

All MALES are treated as if they have the SAME risk of committing sex crime as other males for safe guarding. Why should this special group of male prisoners be treated any differently?

What does it matter if they have a cock or not?

Most women are better at correctly sexing a male person, even after 'transition'. A huge number of women have been subjected to male violence and abuse of some form and too often it is sexual.

The % of women in prisons in the UK that have been subjected to abuse and violence from males, has a much higher likelihood than even the too high number of women and girls in the general population. The number of survivors of sexual abuse and rape is huge in prison.

Remember that they expect that 1% of rapes are even recorded by the police! Imagine the number of MALES who are walking around who are rapists and sex abusers yet will never be reported.

So, women have said very loudly now that they are traumatised by any one that they see as MALE in spaces meant to be single sex.

Please tell us again how your homophobic question should even be entertained on this thread?

As for these 'Still, what about violent cis female offenders? Some are bigger than others and can overtake smaller cis female prisoners. Should we just organize prisons by strength and size then?'. Really? Do you actually understand the issues at all.

Would you like me to post the physical differences between male and female people? I can start with grip strength. A weak male in the lower 25% of all males is STILL STRONGER than a female in the 90th percentile.

I am very happy to post all the other stats for you. Let's discuss them.

And your delving into violence against these males, "Does Mument ever talk how often trans people are victims of violence? They face 4x as much violence as cis people:"

To be blunt. This is so tired 'whataboutery' that it is ridiculous to see it.

Really? 'What about the menz'? is what you are doing here.

What about every other vulnerable MALE in prison? Where do they go? In with the women?

NO. They go with all the other vulnerable MALES.

It is seriously not that hard to think critically about this. You just need to cut through the crap assertion that somehow these males are different from all other males.

And I think that you can safely say this week, that anyone who thinks these males are 'women' in any true sense, is well and truly behind the times. That is demonstrably untrue. Otherwise, Bryson would have simply been put into the female prison. No questions, no special provisions.

Please stop posting such homophobic posts on MN.

Please stop posting such transphobic posts on MN.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 02/02/2023 06:54

Please stop posting such transphobic posts on MN.

Have you got any rational arguments?

Happylittlechicken · 02/02/2023 06:55

To be fair, at least @Clarabell77 said please 😂😂😂😂😂

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 06:56

It’s a bit similar to the “all refugees are terrorists” type thinking.

No, it's the "male people pose a threat to female people" type thinking....Clara. The issue isn't that they're trans, it's that they're male. My husband poses no risk to women but he still doesn't belong in a female space.

She also said under no circumstances should the individual in question be allowed in a women’s prison

Well of course not, because he's a male double rapist. The fact that we have to even consider it as "case by case" is fucking deranged. If he were a violent woman, he'd still be housed in the female estate, just in appropriate segregation, and there wouldn't be any question. The only reason anyone even thinks about "case by case" is because he's male and everyone knows it.

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 06:58

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 06:53

Please stop posting such transphobic posts on MN.

What transphobia? What is transphobic about acknowledging the risk posed by males to females?

FOJN · 02/02/2023 07:02

Please stop posting such transphobic posts on MN.

Really? That's your response to such a fact rich and considered post?

Transwomen are male otherwise they could not be trans.

ComfortablyDazed · 02/02/2023 07:14

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 06:53

Please stop posting such transphobic posts on MN.

If you think throwing out the word ‘transphobic’ is going to silence anyone on here, you are sorely and sadly mistaken.

By your definition, I am transphobic.

I don’t care, I could not be less bothered. I even embrace it. It certainly won’t make me be quiet.

risefromyourgrave · 02/02/2023 07:20

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 20:59

I can’t have a serious discussion because you all are gaslighting me. I made a criticism of your argument that cis women shouldn’t have to shower in front of those who are attracted to them. I brought up how that argument COULD be used against lesbians and bisexual women. In no way did I say that I endorse banning lesbians and bisexual women from prisons.

I am obviously not endorsing homophobia. The fact that you’re so wildly misreading my argument makes me dubious. The leap of logic is astounding and makes me think you’re just trying to shout me down rather

I am not saying that I have a problem with lesbian or bisexual people, I’m saying that if you’re afraid of trans people being attracted to you while you’re in the shower, doesn’t that logically conclude that you’re afraid of anyone who is attracted to you seeing you shower?

I will give the literature you’ve all linked a look — there are too many comments for me to reasonably answer everyone and I think you all know that. Your tactic when there’s a different opinion is to bombard the opposer with so many questions and long posts that they can’t respond. If you want to view that as a “win,” be my guest.

You do realise that the vast majority of men don’t rape women because they’re attracted to them don’t you? It’s not that they are overcome with passion and can’t help themselves. It’s mainly because they get off on the power, something that lesbians don’t seem to have a problem with, I wonder what the difference is…..

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 07:31

ComfortablyDazed · 02/02/2023 07:14

If you think throwing out the word ‘transphobic’ is going to silence anyone on here, you are sorely and sadly mistaken.

By your definition, I am transphobic.

I don’t care, I could not be less bothered. I even embrace it. It certainly won’t make me be quiet.

Says the one throwing out misogyny and homophobia…

Being discriminatory towards a very small minority is really nothing to embrace or be proud of. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean you’re right. And I don’t buy the feminism/women’s rights take on it at all - I didn’t see many of these so called feminists enraged about the rape clause.

Remember, not that long ago it was illegal for two men to have sex.

howmanybicycles · 02/02/2023 07:37

It’s a bit similar to the “all refugees are terrorists” type thinking.

In which case all segregated facilities are saying this too. So you argue for the complete abolition of any sex segregation in prisons, changing rooms, sports, hospital wards etc? If not, why not?

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 07:38

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 07:31

Says the one throwing out misogyny and homophobia…

Being discriminatory towards a very small minority is really nothing to embrace or be proud of. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean you’re right. And I don’t buy the feminism/women’s rights take on it at all - I didn’t see many of these so called feminists enraged about the rape clause.

Remember, not that long ago it was illegal for two men to have sex.

You're not even trying now, are you?

Incidentally, gay rights made no difference at all to the rights of straight people. It's the laziest false equivalence of them all. Allowing men into women's spaces on nothing but their say so and redefining woman to a nebulous feeling that's not definable or even shared by all women, so that it includes a person with a penis, testicle and two rapes to his name...not really comparable.

Botw1 · 02/02/2023 07:40

@Clarabell77

Not that long ago it wasnt illegal for a man to rape his wife.

Your whataboutery is meaningless.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 02/02/2023 07:44

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 07:31

Says the one throwing out misogyny and homophobia…

Being discriminatory towards a very small minority is really nothing to embrace or be proud of. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean you’re right. And I don’t buy the feminism/women’s rights take on it at all - I didn’t see many of these so called feminists enraged about the rape clause.

Remember, not that long ago it was illegal for two men to have sex.

Not that long ago, workplaces didn't need to provide single-sex toilets for women. Which also means no sanitary bins for menstruating women, before you try the "well, the prudes could just have used the men's" argument.

And oh look, we seem to be heading that way again. In one Australian state, they are only building unisex toilets to be inclusive because of new legislation. Problem? They find the men destroy and vandalise sanitary protection equipment. So they're just not putting it in any more.

nilsmousehammer · 02/02/2023 07:46

Someone used the phrase 'faux inclusion' today. It's a very accurate one. 'Anti-women' is another.

ComfortablyDazed · 02/02/2023 07:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Helleofabore · 02/02/2023 07:51

Clarabell77 · 02/02/2023 06:53

Please stop posting such transphobic posts on MN.

Please explain what was transphobic about that post.

Oh and I recommend you report any transphobia on MN. The mods are really excellent at removing transphobia.

nilsmousehammer · 02/02/2023 07:54

They are male.

This fact does not go away by scolding people for mentioning it.

This is the heart of the problem for women. Who are entitled to talk about their needs and experiences to an equal extent, even if it means saying things that people would rather not hear. If you're going to find talking about reality too transphobic to cope with then this isn't a site you're going to enjoy, because women really are not going to stop doing it because you said so.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 02/02/2023 07:55

No men should be in women’s prisons. There should be special wings for these men.