To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

[NeedToChangeName]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

Please read this news story

And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it

The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

Using "c*s" IS gaslighting. We are not a sub-class of our own sex.

Why am I helping Transwomen?
I certainly wouldn’t harm one in any way but I’m not sure why any particular group needs or can expect my help

There is a big difference between getting undressed and showered in front of another woman and in front of a man who claims to be a transwoman. A woman doesn't have a penis and can not rape you. Also, 98% of sexual crimes are committed by men. Women don't pose the same threat. Transwomen have a similar risk profile to men and therefore are a threat.

I can’t have a serious discussion because you all are gaslighting me.

Another word whose meaning you don't know.

The reason you can't have a serious discussion is because you are spouting dangerous bullshit that can and has caused women to be attacked and to lose their fair opportunities in sport and elsewhere, and is easily disproved by people quoting facts and statistics, as if this is even necessary when asking if a male with a penis is a woman.

You have admitted you deliberately don't read anything that contradicts you, even primary sources.

You are absolutely endorsing homophobia - being bisexual isn't a free pass. You are also endorsing the erosion of safeguards for vulnerable women and of simple plain sense.

The only gaslighter here, trying to get women to take leave of both their senses and their human rights, to coerce them into accepting that black is white, to become insane, is you. You aren't being gaslit. You're just dangerously wrong and provably so.

Trans men would not be put into a male prison, because they would inevitably be raped. Rape of weaker men is hardly unknown in prisons.

And no, no intact male should be incarcerated in a female prison.

While we're talking about 'helping male TQ+ prisoners out' and how tough it is for males in the male estate, a few stats of the land of sunshine, roses and human emotional support animals:

A high number of suicides is known to have taken place at Cornton Vale: the eleven in total between 1995 and 2002 was a particular low.

In a 2006 review, 98% of the women had addiction issues, 80% had problems with mental health and 75% were survivors of abuse.

The verdict of the 2012 review: conditions were 'antediluvian and appalling'.

2019 review: women found who were in urgent need of psychiatric care and treatment, and 'should not have been in a prison environment'.

In June 2019 a whistleblower said the “trans prisoners in Scotland’s female jails had been responsible for a “quite horrific” number of incidents towards women inmates, including threats of rape”.

The retired governor of a Scottish women’s prison, Rhona Hotchkiss, continues to warn of the dangers to women inmates, stating, “My experience is that it is always an issue to have transwomen in with female prisoners. I think you have to think beyond the obvious things like physical or sexual threat, which are sometimes an issue, to the very fact of the presence of a male bodied person in amongst vulnerable women causes them distress and consternation”.

There is no difference between biological males that is created by bits of language. There is no linguistic transubstantiation.

A male is a male, and remains a male, even if a male on medication and with extensive cosmetic surgery. They are a male who has had medication and extensive cosmetic surgery.

They are not the problem of troubled, vulnerable women. And there are many ways to make vulnerable male prisoners safer without simply dumping them on women and passing the risk and distress along.

If a transwoman has been living as a woman for years, had no prior criminal history and is going to do time for fraud I can see why they would go to a women's prison.

Hayley Cropper from Coronation Street has a lot to answer for. A carefully chosen female actress and even a prison storyline. Lots of ‘bigotry’ and ‘discrimination’ to overcome.

The overwhelming majority of trans identifying male prisoners are violent or sex offenders (or both).

The trans activists keep telling us we can’t make rules based on ‘outliers’ (although we can and do as a society) - but in this we are not. Ministry of Justice figures show that violent/sex offenders are the majority of trans prisoners.

You only have to look at the severity of offending in the known male members of the women's prison population (which is more than half) to realise the statistical majority are not this nice, harmless, fully transitioned, never violent accountant. This is merely a manipulation squirrel to make you look away from Eastwood, Scott and Bryson et al.

I can’t have a serious discussion because you all are gaslighting me.

JFC you've got a bass neck, as my mum would have said.

And for the final time WE ARE NOT CONCERNED ABOUT SHARING SPACES WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTRACTED TO WOMEN.

Do you know anything about the factors which motivate sexual violence?

“I made a criticism of your argument that cis women shouldn’t have to shower in front of those who are attracted to them. I brought up how that argument COULD be used against lesbians and bisexual women. In no way did I say that I endorse banning lesbians and bisexual women from prisons.”

Who was talking about showering in front of people who were ‘attracted’ to them? We are talking about MALES.

You seem to keep avoiding that very fact.

You might not be ‘endorsing’ homophobia, but you are posting homophobic content. Whether you intended to or not. You used lesbians as some sick ‘gotcha’ to support your own political agenda.

“Your tactic when there’s a different opinion is to bombard the opposer with so many questions and long posts that they can’t respond. If you want to view that as a “win,” be my guest.”

Umm. There are multiple posters on this thread with different opinions. If you cannot deal with long posts, maybe MN is not for you. Why should people not post you links and explain alternative points of view and tell you that your opinion is causing harm to females.

Do you even think through what people have said? What people have posted?

Or do you just think that you are on the right side of history and being kind, and tolerant while the actions and policies you support are actively harming female inmates.

You plead that women should help males who believe they are women, yet you seem completely unable to reconcile that you are asking women to support other women’s harm.

And then you have the gumption to accuse people of gaslighting you. Because you don’t see the homophobia in your own posts.

I suspect that you will only ever understand when it is too late. That is fine. But maybe stop telling women to help with their own harm!

I am not saying that I have a problem with lesbian or bisexual people, I’m saying that if you’re afraid of trans people being attracted to you while you’re in the shower, doesn’t that logically conclude that you’re afraid of anyone who is attracted to you seeing you shower?

I has got fuck all with people being attracted to you and the fact you are trying to sell it is as such is off the scale offensive and it's not just fear either - women are entitled to that most basic of considerations - the right to privacy, dignity and their own comfort.

Transwomen are male, ergo men, no matter what modifications or not they have done to themselves. Women have the right to be away from men, all men, any men for their safety, privacy dignity and comfort and you want to strip them of that right when they are most vulnerable and have no means of escape.

Your belief that transwomen (males, ergo men) are the same as women is removing from all women their right not to consent to being amongst or viewed by members of the male sex at any time they wish, you are attempting to force their compliance, there is a word for that. Are you proud of yourself for doing that to women, particularly those who are most vulnerable and have the least capacity to complain or be heard?

Fundamentally, we disagree on trans women being the same as cis men, so our arguments are never going to align.

What are 'cis' men? Exactly how are they fundamentally different from transwoman (males, ergo men)? Transwomen are of the male sex class, they are part of that rich varied class of males.

It's just not about women showering in front of "people attracted to women". My brother is gay. Very gay.

Should I expect traumatised female victims of male sexual violence to feel comfortable showering in front of him? Absolutely not! Frankly put, he is a flipping giant.

He would never ever expect women to feel safe around him in the showers, because he is a decent, kind man. We have discussed this, and he thinks it is a violation of women that female guards are expected to body search males.

@danascully96
My 3rd attempt at asking this question.

Would you be happy for your frail elderly mother, granny, or your injured daughter to receive intimate care, bathing, dressing etc from a transwoman?

I would bet that if @danascully96 ever deigns to answer that question they will say 'Yes, they would be happy' and sod what their frail elderly mother, granny or injured daughter felt about it, other women's, any woman's, safety, dignity, privacy and comfort is not relevant and matters not one jot to @danascully96. the only ones whose feelings matter are those 'special' males.

I remember my very frail mother with dementia who was a domestic violence and abuse survivor being very distressed in the mixed sex ward after her heart attack. There was a man in the next bed. It was very monitored but none the less, she was scared.

To my shame, I allowed others to dismiss her fear and I did nothing.

@Helleofabore bless her.
I've been in a Cornary Care Ward and yes it was mixed but at least the men folk weren't pretending to be women. And everyone was hooked up to monitors so nobody was wandering around either.

Yes. This man seemed just as uncomfortable being the only man in a room with 4 women who did not want him there. All elderly. All frail. None connected up though. So they could move around if they wanted to.

Male people and female people deserve privacy and dignity along with safety in single sex spaces. I talk to many men who hate gender neutral toilets for different reasons. That solution has served neither sex well.

I’m saying that if you’re afraid of trans people being attracted to you while you’re in the shower, doesn’t that logically conclude that you’re afraid of anyone who is attracted to you seeing you shower?

Nobody is this dense.

I would not necessarily be afraid of women who are attracted to me while in the shower.

I absolutely WOULD be afraid of a male-bodied person who’s attracted to me while in the shower.

The issue is not ‘attraction’. It’s the sex of the other person.

For God’s sake, @danascully96 - come on.

It has served a tiny, very vocal, minority extremely well, though.

The entire world is bending for them, and yet somehow we’re supposed to accept that this group are the persecuted ones.

Or a women’s changing room or toilet, for that matter. I sometimes wonder if all this stupidity over “trans rights” is because we are all too coy to use the word “penis.” “Trans women are women” sounds very progressive (popular among the luxury belief set). “These people with penises are women” sounds like obvious nonsense. It’s some outre idea of perceived gender that women don’t want in their ought-to-be-protected spaces. It’s penises pure and simple. If you have a penis you aren’t welcome whatever you identify as. And we should say so. And championing the rights of people with penises over those who lack them and feel threatened by them is surely the very definition of misogyny.

I also think a lot of men aren't that comfortable with the idea of sharing a hospital ward or open changing room with transwomen either, but so much of this has gone under the radar they haven't thought about it.
They don't have the same physical threat but they just aren't comfortable with the idea of it.

But it's that old thing our politicians rarely will be sharing a hospital ward with anyone.

But @Sugarfree23 that is not women’s problem is it? If men are uncomfortable with gender Non confirming males in their spaces, that’s up to them to work on and learn to accept that men do not always have to conform to gender stereotypes.

I also think a lot of men aren't that comfortable with the idea of sharing a hospital ward or open changing room with transwomen either

And this is where the discrimination actually is.

Off topic but it makes me think of how much I detest it when I read about TW being excluded from sports. If they are excluded it is the men doing the excluding because they should be able to compete in their sex class like every other man. If men are excluding them because of what they are wearing, or what plastic surgery they've chosen to have, then that is a problem. It would be unjustifiable and should stop immediately. There is no need to have two male categories or to allow some males into the female category.

"I'm not safe sharing a shower with male people."

"Then you can't be safe sharing them with lesbians either! Because lesbians are just like men! Aha! Gotcha! Ahahahahaaa! Whaddaya mean, that's homophobic? Whaaaaa, I'm being gaslit!"

Fuck's sake.