To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

[NeedToChangeName]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

Please read this news story

And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it

The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

It would have been shorter to type "I've never thought about any of that".

<eyeroll>

As FOJN said (below). TLDR? Trans-identified males retain the same offending patterns as non-trans-identified males.

Published today by sex matters.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/what-did-we-learn-from-the-census/

Points of note:

Transwomen are 5 times more likely to be convicted sex offenders than other males.

Murder rates for transpeople are 10 times lower than for the general population.

I am also going to post this study, I think I posted it upthread. But it won't hurt.

academic.oup.com/bjc/article/62/4/1000/6370239

‘She Was Just Like A Lassie’: Analysing The Views of Cis-Women In Custody About Their Experiences of Living With Transgender Women In The Scottish Prison Estate

Matthew Maycock, 14 September 2021

The latest official figures indicate a fall in the average number of women in custody between 2011–12 and 2016–17, followed by a relatively static female average prison population of under 400 women since 2016–17 (Scottish Government 2020). At the time of ethical approval for the study (May 2019), there were 379 women in custody in Scotland, equating to 4.6% of the prison population, located in five prisons across Scotland. In May 2019 there were 17 transgender people in custody.

A very biased report. But some comments such as:

"She’s been caught having sex and stuff in here, and I think that’s wrong. Well, supposedly, she had stopped taking her medication for a bit and, supposedly, something had happened."

There’s a transgender [wo]man (Susan). He worked in the...my work party. His views were totally wrong. He wanted to be in this hall because he wanted to have sex with loads of lassies.

And it’s been like...aye. And it’s been like, well, wait a minute, you’ve still got that strength and whatever. You’re still acting like a man here. Like trying to get like authority over you.

She was never female before until she hit [name of prison] and then decided that she wanted to be a woman because she couldn’t handle it. I think she puts a lot of it on.

Several participants discussed transgender people who had transitioned in custody, but who had reverted to their birth gender following release. For example, Isla below outlines her acceptance of a transgender woman (Ruth) in her hall, reflecting on the hurt that this caused given the efforts she and other prisoners made to accept and welcome this person:

We treated that lassie (Ruth) as female. I treated that lassie with the greatest respect. And I always said that, what do you need? And then when Janice came back and told us that, after she got lib, it really kind of…it hurt. It hurt us, because we tried to help her, we tried to make her feel welcome. I felt personally she was a man wanting an easy escape from the male estate.

Ella shared similar experiences about different transgender people she had got to know while in custody. This for Ella resulted in a wider scepticism about the transitions of transgender people in custody:

The last one to get out, back living as a man. The one before that got out, back living as a man, while he was in the hall, was telling people, I’m stopping taking my medication because I can’t get a hard on. I’ve not a problem living with trans people, it’s living with people who are manipulating the system and pretending to be trans.

There is now documented evidence that even a 'nice' transitioned male could well be being transferred to have sex.

Do any poster's supporting this honestly think that an imprisoned woman can consent to sex? That she would consent to sex with that person if she was a free woman not in jail? And how would you even know?

Men are a threat to me too though I'm notices because like many others, I don't have a gender identity. Are you meaning to suggest that only those few women who have one are threatened by men?

"Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year."

That is appalling and I don't think this is OK but it does not change my mind about keeping prisons single sex.

Your single statistic offers no context about the risks to trans prisoners in the male prison estate. We would need to know how many assaults there were in the male prison estate overall in order to establish if someone is at higher risk than other inmates in the male estate.

I would be interested in whether the transrisoners had been housed in a vulnerable prisoner unit and if not why not?

Which other groups of vulnerable males do you think should be housed in the female prison estate?

If TWAW for all purposes except in circumstances where adhering to the mantra may backfire on our polticians, who decides when they are and are not women?

During the periods of time where it's not politically convenient for transwomen to be women what do they become instead?

Oh, I reckon that Jimbo will come along and happily point to the angry and ranting parts of my post.

I am very much looking forward to seeing where my behaviour has been offensive to him.

Many women are uncomfortable with males in female prisons. Any males. Youvhave given that protection away for an ideological position and I see you very much as part of the problem tbh. I think that post was very measured given that you show no regard for your middle class privilege. A male whose chosen to b castrated still looks, feels and acts like a male. It's not for you to decide that it's OK for vulnerable women to be locked up with one such male.

Uh-oh, a Sex Matters link! Dana may melt!

Some of you may think I sound pissed off. You would be right! In fact, I am incandescently furious right now.

Why? This line: I won't use clearly biased sites like SexMatters, so that limits my options. I search for academic journals and government documents primarily.

Dana right here is boasting that she deliberately excludes primary sources like the testimony of female prisoners. She only checks what other people who have not been imprisoned, write about it. I bet she's never even thought about it like that, but that's what she's doing. She keeps herself carefully insulated from female prisoners' reality, and this is entirely standard for trans activist posters.

I am absolutely sick of literate, privileged women who can read "academic journals" sacrificing the bodies and lives of imprisoned women to demonstrate their trans allyship. Contrast your privilege with the average level of adult literacy amongst prisoners, and feel some shame.

And yes, I did have a loved one in a women's prison. And she was never bothered about lesbians. She was fucking worried about men though.

I would also add. If you don't care about female prisoners then not only is that not kind, but you're also ignoring the female staff in prisons. Who will be forced to guard and search males. Suppose they're just collateral damage?

Absolutely this neighbour

And yes. Nothing like having a female family member incarcerated to make you very aware just how easy it is for some people to make grand statements about how little they actually consider the needs of the women in those prisons.

By the way, here is just one incident of one male impregnating two women while in prison.

www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/nj-trans-prisoner-impregnated-2-inmates-transferred-mens-facility-rcna38947

It was widely reported at the time.

In case anyone wants to dismiss the source for whatever reason. You can google it to find a more acceptable source.

Also google prisons in the US (California I think) handing out contraception because the warning went around that the 'male prisoners' were being admitted to the prisons.

yep. Nothing like substandard health care when a male with a cock has been put in your cell and you get pregnant!

Wonderful consideration for the safety and health for female prisoners.

An imprisoned woman writes from an American prison in her capacity as a prison journalìst. Sorry if it isn't academic enough for anyone.

thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-woman-california-prison-speaks-out-against-biological-male-rapists-housed-with-female-inmates

😂

I am absolutely sick of literate, privileged women who can read "academic journals" sacrificing the bodies and lives of imprisoned women to demonstrate their trans allyship.

Hear, hear. And

Unless they've been castrated & somehow don't have a strength of average biological man... they are still men

Even then, they're still men. Just castrated and artificially weakened ones. A woman is not a weak, castrated man.

For all those who are not ‘angry’ about this, why aren’t you?

Why are you not fucking furious that women have been treated as they have?

if you cannot answer anything else, please answer that!

@ReneBumsWombats 100% right tbh!!

The studies posted upthread show they are still stronger on average than women. Even with testosterone reduced!

Oddly enough he hasn't been back to say he'd he happy with his vulnerable mother being washed by a transwoman either.

Maybe we've cleared things up in his mind

So we have a bloke who has given his considered adjucation on what women should do for men and accept from men and which men he has decided to inflict on them, and is now peeved that women are not impressed.

And we have 'we can help (males with trans identities) out'.

Look. If you want to indulge your personal beauty and the beast/love of a good woman sentimental fantasies with Tiffany Scott you crack on. Your body, your choice. I suspect if you came anywhere near the reality of the kind of criminal we are talking about you would run a mile. But you do not get to inflict that on another woman and her body in a reality you will never share, because your fantasy feels nice. It may come as a real shock but women in prison have their own serious problems and struggles and day to get through: they are not employed therapeutic aids to assist troubled and brooding men. It's not a bloody Mills and Boon.

Go and listen to that athlete who gave evidence yesterday about sharing a changing room with Scott, the male TQ+ swimmer. She could leave at any time. She could go home, she could escape the team, she could run away. Go and listen to that woman, in tears, recounting the abuse of feeling just socially compelled to undress in front of a watching, naked man. And then give some serious thought that if you support this shit you support and enable her abuse. And the abuse of women who did not choose to be in a room with a man with a serious criminal record, and nowhere to run. Historically I cannot think of when women were forcibly exposed like this other than the bloody witch trials.

It is wicked. This is actually wicked.

He comes from my home town. Everyone who knows him agrees it is a Scam because he is an exhibitionist. Check picture arriving at court in pink leggings and full erection. Not a pretty sight. Also he knows if he goes to male prison as a rapist he has a target on his back. Coward and fraud.

I can’t have a serious discussion because you all are gaslighting me. I made a criticism of your argument that cis women shouldn’t have to shower in front of those who are attracted to them. I brought up how that argument COULD be used against lesbians and bisexual women. In no way did I say that I endorse banning lesbians and bisexual women from prisons.

I am obviously not endorsing homophobia. The fact that you’re so wildly misreading my argument makes me dubious. The leap of logic is astounding and makes me think you’re just trying to shout me down rather

I am not saying that I have a problem with lesbian or bisexual people, I’m saying that if you’re afraid of trans people being attracted to you while you’re in the shower, doesn’t that logically conclude that you’re afraid of anyone who is attracted to you seeing you shower?

I will give the literature you’ve all linked a look — there are too many comments for me to reasonably answer everyone and I think you all know that. Your tactic when there’s a different opinion is to bombard the opposer with so many questions and long posts that they can’t respond. If you want to view that as a “win,” be my guest.

And when I said women aren’t powerless, I mean that we can help trans women. I didn’t mean that we have to put up with abuse or that the victim is at fault 🙄

Fundamentally, we disagree on trans women being the same as cis men, so our arguments are never going to align.

Fundamentally, we disagree on trans women being the same as cis men, so our arguments are never going to align.

And you have the fucking cheek to accuse us women of gaslighting you?

There is no difference between trans women and any other men which justifies them being put in the women's prison estate.

Women are human beings.