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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

552 replies

NeedToChangeName · 29/01/2023 19:13

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

Please read this news story

And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it

The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ReneBumsWombats · 31/01/2023 17:37

Yes, men are vastly more likely to commit sexual/violent offenses than women. However, if a female inmate is in a high-security prison because she committed a violent/sexual crime, then she is surrounded by women who have also committed a violent/sexual crime.

So we should also have her surrounded by men who committed a violent/sexual crime?

Serious question: why do you want vulnerable women locked up with violent men? Why do you actively seek for women to be unsafe and threatened?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/01/2023 17:40

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:28

Some of you are hungry to twist my words because it suits your argument.

I'm not homophobic, I'm bi myself. I was pointing out that the argument many of you are making about cis women feeling uncomfortable when they're showering because they share a cell with someone who might be attracted to them can be used against lesbians and bisexual women.

Yes, men are vastly more likely to commit sexual/violent offenses than women. However, if a female inmate is in a high-security prison because she committed a violent/sexual crime, then she is surrounded by women who have also committed a violent/sexual crime.

"The rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization is at least 3 times higher for females (13.7%) than males (4.2%). This has been attributed to the fact that a majority of prison officials do not view female-on-female sexual assault as “true rape,” making them less likely to reprimand inmates." bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/pdca12.pdf

"Rates of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization in the previous 6 months were highest for female inmates (212 per 1,000), more than four times higher than male rates (43 per 1,000)."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/

Women are not powerless -- we can help transgender people out. Transwomen were some of the most important figures in securing gay rights in American history.

American data about the attitudes of American prison officers in American prisons.

Is any of this applicable to the debate oh whether we should have mixed sex prisons in Britain?

Do British lesbians and gay men owe their rights to American transwomen as well?

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:40

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:30

You all are rabid -- I have a job!!! I don't have time to respond 24/7. I know MN is notorious for these debates and wanted to share my opinion. The back-to-back piling on I'm receiving right now reflects the echo chamber you've all made for yourselves.

Transmen should be in female prisons because it is safer for them there. I genuinely believe cis men pose the greatest threat to cis women, trans men, and trans women. The BBC reports, "Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117

CNN reports similar findings: www.cnn.com/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

LaLuz7 · 31/01/2023 17:41

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:40

Transmen should be in female prisons because it is safer for them there. I genuinely believe cis men pose the greatest threat to cis women, trans men, and trans women. The BBC reports, "Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117

CNN reports similar findings: www.cnn.com/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

Thanks for proving yourself as a hypocritical joke :)

Jimboscott0115 · 31/01/2023 17:42

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 15:47

"If you've transitioned and undergone everything that entails then I think entering a prison for the gender you've transitioned to should be recommended but assessmed on a case by case basis based upon the risks posed to the existing prison population, not the person being jailed."

So according to you, a male, women who are retraumatised being in situations with males they cannot escape from is miraculously fixed with someones cock being chopped off.

Do you understand that women are much more likely to be able to accurately sex a male even after their cock has been chopped off and maybe even inserted back into their body?

That a male body has cues that once any puberty has started, will be detectible. Even the facial features. Hence why some men opt to have their face peeled back and have bones shaved, implants added, and even the space between their nose and lip narrowed and their hair line adjusted.

Do you realise how few males get that done? It is not available on the NHS so it is very few.

And if that is the case, why on earth would you put ANY female in the situation where they are going to be retraumatised?

Do you understand female rape and violence survivors needs at all?

Because with this post you have just told women that their needs don't count. And you have prioritised another male person's needs above theirs.

Feels like a very angry and unnccesary response to me simply giving my opinion to be honest. I'm not going to respond to whatever this post is ranting about as you seem to think that somehow because on one point we have a different opinion then I'm the enemy which is both silly and childish.

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:42

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/01/2023 17:40

American data about the attitudes of American prison officers in American prisons.

Is any of this applicable to the debate oh whether we should have mixed sex prisons in Britain?

Do British lesbians and gay men owe their rights to American transwomen as well?

I genuinely haven't been able to find as much data on the UK side. The top results are US. Google is extremely US-centric unfortunately.

I won't use clearly biased sites like SexMatters, so that limits my options. I search for academic journals and government documents primarily.

Hoppinggreen · 31/01/2023 17:44

Why are Transmen safer in women’s prisons?
Because there are no men there (or shouldn’t be)
So men in prisons are dangerous to women and therefore prisons should be single sex

LaLuz7 · 31/01/2023 17:45

Hoppinggreen · 31/01/2023 17:44

Why are Transmen safer in women’s prisons?
Because there are no men there (or shouldn’t be)
So men in prisons are dangerous to women and therefore prisons should be single sex

nonono you see transwomen are the elusive harmless unicorn flavour of male, not like the male males

i can't even...

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/01/2023 17:46

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:42

I genuinely haven't been able to find as much data on the UK side. The top results are US. Google is extremely US-centric unfortunately.

I won't use clearly biased sites like SexMatters, so that limits my options. I search for academic journals and government documents primarily.

Start here. There was a Commission on Sex in Prison led by the Howard League, and I have read all the reports previously. There are multiple, as they separated consensual relationships and coercive ones.

But then, I don't spend my time boasting about what I won't read, which frees up my reading time.

howardleague.org/news/prisonersexperiencesofsexinprison/

ReneBumsWombats · 31/01/2023 17:47

Transmen should be in female prisons because it is safer for them there.

And why do you think that is, Poirot?

Were prisons made single sex to protect women from men, or to reassure them that we all thought they were women?

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 17:53

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:28

Some of you are hungry to twist my words because it suits your argument.

I'm not homophobic, I'm bi myself. I was pointing out that the argument many of you are making about cis women feeling uncomfortable when they're showering because they share a cell with someone who might be attracted to them can be used against lesbians and bisexual women.

Yes, men are vastly more likely to commit sexual/violent offenses than women. However, if a female inmate is in a high-security prison because she committed a violent/sexual crime, then she is surrounded by women who have also committed a violent/sexual crime.

"The rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization is at least 3 times higher for females (13.7%) than males (4.2%). This has been attributed to the fact that a majority of prison officials do not view female-on-female sexual assault as “true rape,” making them less likely to reprimand inmates." bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/pdca12.pdf

"Rates of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization in the previous 6 months were highest for female inmates (212 per 1,000), more than four times higher than male rates (43 per 1,000)."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/

Women are not powerless -- we can help transgender people out. Transwomen were some of the most important figures in securing gay rights in American history.

No. It is homophobic to use the argument about lesbians being more of a risk or danger than other women. It is homophobic to use the argument of homosexual males being more of a risk then all other males.

Just because you are bisexual, doesn't take away the fact that what you did was homophobic.

Lesbians are not MALES. I hope that that helps you to see that your comparator is very wrong.

And do you know, using the census data and extrapolating the number of males who identify as women that are in UK prison at the moment, the rate is that the risk that one of those males has committed a sex crime is 1 in 585.

Nothing at all like a female rate of committing sex crime.

Yes, men are vastly more likely to commit sexual/violent offenses than women. However, if a female inmate is in a high-security prison because she committed a violent/sexual crime, then she is surrounded by women who have also committed a violent/sexual crime.

How about you go and get some numbers for the numbers of women in the UK in prison for a sex crime and come back and tell us?

And again, if you look at the physical differences between transitioned males with lowered testostorone vs women, you would know that the power difference is STILL huge.

So it comes back to the risk of that person committing of a sex crime. And the comparator is MALES not females.

"The rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization is at least 3 times higher for females (13.7%) than males (4.2%). This has been attributed to the fact that a majority of prison officials do not view female-on-female sexual assault as “true rape,” making them less likely to reprimand inmates."

And your answer??? To put males in the equation to add even more risk to female prisoners. How terribly kind you are.

It has been already noted in evidence to the Ministry of Justice of instances of females being subjected to having to witness males at least with full erections plus some masturbating in the showers, deliberately with the curtains wide open. And those women who complain, are told by the prison that they are transphobic and punished.

Do you understand what that can do to females who are sex abuse and assault victims.

www.canlii.org/en/on/onwsiat/doc/2022/2022onwsiat1544/2022onwsiat1544.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQALVHJhbnNnZW5kZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=5

Have a read of this. This is the case of a female prison officer who had to watch a transitioned male prisoner masturbate and expose their genitals while using the toilet. Because that was her job and this prisoner was on suicide watch and knew that a female prison officer was watching.

"Women are not powerless -- we can help transgender people out."

FFS. Do you honestly believe that ? That women are either physically powerful enough to overpower the average male (including those taking testosterone)? Or that women even have any fucking power while in prison?

They are told they are transphobic if they complain about males masturbating in the showers!!!!!!

"Transwomen were some of the most important figures in securing gay rights in American history."

Not according to the actual still alive 'important figures' who were active in securing gay rights. According to those people, trans lobby groups seem to have been making up stories and retrofitting falsehoods to the reality.

Women are NOT HUMAN SHIELDS for any MALES. We are not support humans. We are not resources to be used to make some people feel better. We are not people to put to risk like this.

Maybe you have the privilege to make all these arguments.

Women in prison have no voice. And while it may not matter to you, I have had a female family member in prison recently, so the very real possibilities of all this, is not a theoretical exercise to me.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 17:56

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:42

I genuinely haven't been able to find as much data on the UK side. The top results are US. Google is extremely US-centric unfortunately.

I won't use clearly biased sites like SexMatters, so that limits my options. I search for academic journals and government documents primarily.

Here is a suggestion. Just like we all do.

Go and read ALL the articles you can find no matter who publishes them and then go and look for original sources.

"I won't use clearly biased sites like SexMatters, so that limits my options." makes you sound like you are just so prejudiced that you cannot read anything that you disagree with.

Go and read it and then go do your own fact checking if you disagree with it. We all do this.

Otherwise, yes. You do have 'limited' views.

FOJN · 31/01/2023 17:58

I'm not homophobic, I'm bi myself. I was pointing out that the argument many of you are making about cis women feeling uncomfortable when they're showering because they share a cell with someone who might be attracted to them can be used against lesbians and bisexual women.

No one except you has made that argument so is a bit rich for you to accuse others of twisting your words. And your remarks are still disgustingly homophobic. I have no problem using the same showers toilets etc with lesbian or bi women, it doesn't even cross my mind.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 17:59

Jimboscott0115 · 31/01/2023 17:42

Feels like a very angry and unnccesary response to me simply giving my opinion to be honest. I'm not going to respond to whatever this post is ranting about as you seem to think that somehow because on one point we have a different opinion then I'm the enemy which is both silly and childish.

A woman posting bluntly and asking questions is 'very angry and unnecessary' and you 'are not going to respond' to the 'ranting'.

I don't consider you the 'enemy'. I consider your views ill thought through. And if you consider that silly and childish, that is a 'you' issue.

How about you post the examples of my 'anger' and my 'ranting' please?

So all of us can see what makes you think that is an appropriate answer to my post.

lifeturnsonadime · 31/01/2023 18:00

"Women are not powerless -- we can help transgender people out."

No. We are not support humans for males with special identities.

Women are not powerless and need to put OTHER WOMEN first.

I'm sick to the shit of being told that we need to look after these men. The ones you are advocating for are rapists FFS.

FOJN · 31/01/2023 18:02

I won't use clearly biased sites like SexMatters, so that limits my options.

Well you could read what they say and then test for bias by looking at the census data which, I hope you accept, they cannot falsify.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 18:03

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:40

Transmen should be in female prisons because it is safer for them there. I genuinely believe cis men pose the greatest threat to cis women, trans men, and trans women. The BBC reports, "Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117

CNN reports similar findings: www.cnn.com/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

"Transmen should be in female prisons because it is safer for them there".

Why?

What evidence do you have to support that?

Because even with testosterone, those female prisoners are still at significant physical disadvantage to males. You only have to look at female athletes that have taken testosterone. Where do they place in sports against males?

I think you might have a very unrealistic view on women's strength.

ComfortablyDazed · 31/01/2023 18:04

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:40

Transmen should be in female prisons because it is safer for them there. I genuinely believe cis men pose the greatest threat to cis women, trans men, and trans women. The BBC reports, "Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117

CNN reports similar findings: www.cnn.com/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

Ah, right.

So transmen are NOT men.

Glad we’ve confirmed that, at least.

Your posts are riddled with hypocrisy, misogyny and homophobia.

Why do you expect any of us to give you any credibility?

ComfortablyDazed · 31/01/2023 18:06

And why should transmen’s safety be a consideration when being incarcerated, but not women’s @danascully96?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/01/2023 18:07

Helleofabore I'd suggest www.womaniiwoman.org/ run by previously incarcerated women for incarcerated women, and IIRC, run by a lesbian woman too.

But unfortunately, as is strangely normal for female prisoners, they take the wrong kind of view to Dana. They are thus to be discounted as biased. Only some people's lived experience counts, and it's never female prisoners' lived experiences of abuse.

DemonHost · 31/01/2023 18:08

Even if you pulled all it’s teeth out you wouldn’t keep a fox in a hen-house.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 18:08

danascully96 · 31/01/2023 17:40

Transmen should be in female prisons because it is safer for them there. I genuinely believe cis men pose the greatest threat to cis women, trans men, and trans women. The BBC reports, "Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117

CNN reports similar findings: www.cnn.com/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

thank you for posting these. They are indeed concerning.

However, genuinely, why should these males not be housed in vulnerable male prison sections. What do you think the rates of attacks against other vulnerable male prisons are? Do you have these?

Why are these male prisoners with trans identities different to those other vulnerable males?

We can just keep repeating this.

Women are not support humans for any MALES.
Women are not human shields for any MALES.
Women (those who are female) need safety, dignity and privacy away from MALES when they are incarcerated.

Vulnerable males can be housed with other vulnerable males.

Botw1 · 31/01/2023 18:10

So the priority for keeping prisoners safe is always transpeople first?

Women should always help trans people out by putting their rights and safety above their own?

Botw1 · 31/01/2023 18:11

And if twaw tmam and we can't say their safety trumps their right to their sex

Helleofabore · 31/01/2023 18:12

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/01/2023 18:07

Helleofabore I'd suggest www.womaniiwoman.org/ run by previously incarcerated women for incarcerated women, and IIRC, run by a lesbian woman too.

But unfortunately, as is strangely normal for female prisoners, they take the wrong kind of view to Dana. They are thus to be discounted as biased. Only some people's lived experience counts, and it's never female prisoners' lived experiences of abuse.

I suggest we start posting the stories from the USA about women and their mounting up data against the attacks, pregnancies and abuse experienced at the hands of these male prisoners since we have crossed over to using USA anecdotes for evidence.

Tell us @danascully96, do you think an imprisoned woman who gets pregnant while in prison is a positive point for your argument that certain males should be imprisoned in with female inmates?

Can you imagine what that is like? Getting pregnant while in prison? Because you were housed with a male who was 'assessed' as being no danger?