To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

[NeedToChangeName]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

Please read this news story

And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it

The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

Oh my.... the homophobia and misogyny that is now coming out on this thread.

Males! Males commit 99% of all sex crime in this and other western countries.

Lesbians have the exact same risk of committing sex crime as other FEMALES.

All MALES are treated as if they have the SAME risk of committing sex crime as other males for safe guarding. Why should this special group of male prisoners be treated any differently?

What does it matter if they have a cock or not?

Most women are better at correctly sexing a male person, even after 'transition'. A huge number of women have been subjected to male violence and abuse of some form and too often it is sexual.

The % of women in prisons in the UK that have been subjected to abuse and violence from males, has a much higher likelihood than even the too high number of women and girls in the general population. The number of survivors of sexual abuse and rape is huge in prison.

Remember that they expect that 1% of rapes are even recorded by the police! Imagine the number of MALES who are walking around who are rapists and sex abusers yet will never be reported.

So, women have said very loudly now that they are traumatised by any one that they see as MALE in spaces meant to be single sex.

Please tell us again how your homophobic question should even be entertained on this thread?

As for these 'Still, what about violent cis female offenders? Some are bigger than others and can overtake smaller cis female prisoners. Should we just organize prisons by strength and size then?'. Really? Do you actually understand the issues at all.

Would you like me to post the physical differences between male and female people? I can start with grip strength. A weak male in the lower 25% of all males is STILL STRONGER than a female in the 90th percentile.

I am very happy to post all the other stats for you. Let's discuss them.

And your delving into violence against these males, "Does Mument ever talk how often trans people are victims of violence? They face 4x as much violence as cis people:"

To be blunt. This is so tired 'whataboutery' that it is ridiculous to see it.

Really? 'What about the menz'? is what you are doing here.

What about every other vulnerable MALE in prison? Where do they go? In with the women?

NO. They go with all the other vulnerable MALES.

It is seriously not that hard to think critically about this. You just need to cut through the crap assertion that somehow these males are different from all other males.

And I think that you can safely say this week, that anyone who thinks these males are 'women' in any true sense, is well and truly behind the times. That is demonstrably untrue. Otherwise, Bryson would have simply been put into the female prison. No questions, no special provisions.

Please stop posting such homophobic posts on MN.

The only homophobia I have seen is from you.

@danascully96 do you endorse putting trans men in male prisons? why or why not?

Or are we happy to vilify and denigrate trans people?

What about all the men who are not trans who do not posses this unverifiable gender identity who are not allowed in single sex female only spaces whilst the 'special' ones with this unverifiable identity are? Is that not vilifying and denigrating other men?

Single sex female only spaces and services are there for the safety, privacy, dignity and comfort of females and that is ALL females and NO MALES whatever their identity, whatever they have done (or not) cosmetically, surgically or chemically to their male body.

Oh don't be so damn silly.

Only men can be rapists under UK law.

There are fundamental differences between the two sexes.

Wtf is the matter with you that you are loudly defending rapists and rapists' access to women?

Men who want to can rock their frock in the gents.

And if this was true, it would be a diagnostic tool that was being used. It would have also been featured in the Tavistock vs Bell case as a tool that was useable.

It is NOT being used.

Because it is not saying what you want it to say.

It is well known that certain activities affect the brain differently. As do hormones. It is also a very well known fact that some males have brain structures 'similar' to some female people. It is meaningless.

Otherwise, it would be used as a tool to diagnose trans people.

If you thought this was some kind of 'gotcha', maybe consider the low bar that you have to be convinced of something. And your own lack of extensive reading.

Please stop posting such homophobic posts on MN.

I wish they would @Helleofabore , it's repellent but they seem to take a great deal of pride in doing so.

No but I am happy to see any who have committed crimes worthy of jail sent to prison based on their Biological sex.
See, this is the ridiculous hysteria right there. Feminists don’t usually want to vilify or denigrate Trans people, we dont want to kill, erase ,burn or rape them either.
We just want them to confine themselves to the single sex spaces that they belong in - based purely on their sex.
Its very very simple

I don't think there's an argument to be had for non transitioned people. The line feels clear.
If you've transitioned and undergone everything that entails then I think entering a prison for the gender you've transitioned to should be recommended but assessmed on a case by case basis based upon the risks posed to the existing prison population, not the person being jailed.

It's the argument that someone can 'live as a woman and is therefore a woman' that makes the least sense - simply because there is no single trait except biology that defines a woman - it's not all pretty dresses, makeup and nice hair, that's just a ludicrous stereotype and doesn't apply in reality, nor is it sexual preference, or build etc.

The fact is, I, as a 6ft tall big built bloke could pretend I'm a woman - which has absolutely no definition outside of biology - and aim to get into a woman's prison. That's ludicrous on every level.

I always fall back to the same argument that I'm yet to receive any form of reasoned response back on - what is a 'woman' if not for biology? There is no fully defined term that makes any actual sense in reality, and therefore there's no such thing as being a non-biological woman.

"If you've transitioned and undergone everything that entails then I think entering a prison for the gender you've transitioned to should be recommended but assessmed on a case by case basis based upon the risks posed to the existing prison population, not the person being jailed."

So according to you, a male, women who are retraumatised being in situations with males they cannot escape from is miraculously fixed with someones cock being chopped off.

Do you understand that women are much more likely to be able to accurately sex a male even after their cock has been chopped off and maybe even inserted back into their body?

That a male body has cues that once any puberty has started, will be detectible. Even the facial features. Hence why some men opt to have their face peeled back and have bones shaved, implants added, and even the space between their nose and lip narrowed and their hair line adjusted.

Do you realise how few males get that done? It is not available on the NHS so it is very few.

And if that is the case, why on earth would you put ANY female in the situation where they are going to be retraumatised?

Do you understand female rape and violence survivors needs at all?

Because with this post you have just told women that their needs don't count. And you have prioritised another male person's needs above theirs.

Your homophobia is disgusting.

We are not concerned with someone's trans status but their biological sex. Men commit nearly all sexual crimes, this does not change just because they don't identify as men. Whatever the sexual orientation of women they are a far, far lower risk to other female prisoners. The majority of female prisoners in the UK are convicted of theft and drugs charges rather than violent or sexual offences.

I can accept that men who say they are women may be at greater risk of violence and sexual violence in the male prison estate but so are gay men and no one is proposing they should be housed in the female prison estate. The solution is to make male prisons more safe rather than female prisons less safe. Women are being raped
because male sex offenders are being housed in women's prisons.

The link below is one of many stories about the type of prisoners consider safe to be housed with women.

reduxx.info/transgender-killer-and-rapist-who-blamed-his-crimes-on-his-female-side-is-quietly-moved-to-a-womens-prison/

And here is one of many stories about the consequences of that decision. The rapist did not assault a female prisoner because they were trans but because they were male.

reduxx.info/trans-identified-male-accused-in-jailhouse-rape-of-female-cellmate/

Both your links contain contradictions and your Williams institute link is a press release, you have to contact the author to get a copy of the full study, I wonder why?

The press release states:

"Results showed that both transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization than their cisgender counterparts, but there were no differences between transgender men and women."

But later:

"Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively)."

I think there is a significant difference between 86.1 and 107.5 per 1000 people. Either way you will notice that, regardless of gender identity, females are reported to experience higher levels of violent victimisation than males.

Trans people are not being denigrated, we're expressing concerns about the risk of male violence against women. Concerns that are well supported by all available evidence.

I don't think there's an argument to be had for non transitioned people. The line feels clear.
If you've transitioned and undergone everything that entails then I think entering a prison for the gender you've transitioned to should be recommended but assessmed on a case by case basis based upon the risks posed to the existing prison population, not the person being jailed.

No. Watch this interview with Heather Mason, discussing various post-surgical males enjoying themselves in women's prisons in Canada, starting at about 16:30

And those so-called risk assessments can do one.

No.

with this post you have just told women that their needs don't count. And you have prioritised another male person's needs above theirs.

Yes. That nails it.

Getting to use women is not a prize for males who have sacrificed their genitals. Women aren't a consolation prize, or a emotional support animal, or a human shield there to take care of the vulnerable. They don't exist to reassure a male of their identity. And I'm afraid even the most gentle, lovely, safe male is using women when they feel entitled to use women's spaces.

This is not ok in a world where female humans aren't seen as some kind of subclass of lesser beings with less importance, less feelings, less humanity.

This also illustrates that the SNP are lying every time they repeat the liturgy TWAW.... they show entirely sex based thinking, and if they really believed TW were W, they would treat them as badly and with as little humanity as they treat women.

As for trans women, they are women

No @danascully96 they are not. Women are not born with penises.

"As for trans women, they are women and deserve to be in female prisons since they may be at an higher chance of being attacked in a male prison."

Tell you what.

Please produce the evidence that this is true in any UK prison and compare it to other males who are designated as 'vulnerable'.

Otherwise, you are speculating. And you really do seem to be behind the times now.

TW are women as a mantra has been shown to be completely false.

Because it seems that 'trans women are only women under certain circumstances'. And True trans women cannot be tested for so .... it is pretty meaningless as a mantra now.

But do please keep repeating it. Everyone is watching Nicola Sturgeon and others flounder and not be able to give any sensible or reasonable answer. Because it is know to be false, completely false.

However, considering your own low bar for evidence to be convincing for you, maybe that bit of logic escaped you.

I don’t see why so many people are saying that cis female prisoners shouldn’t have to wash in front of a trans women simply because the trans woman could be attracted to them?

Rape is about power and control.

If a man uses trans identity to get access to the women's prison estate then he has already demonstrated that he has power and control over women.

Your homophobia is disgusting and the fact that you are advocating for rapists to have access to vulnerable women who cannot escape is beyond the pale.

Oddly enough, @danascully96 hasn't been back to confirm to me that she also wants transmen put in male prisons. I wonder why...

If trans women were women, there'd be no need to assess on a "case by case" basis whether they belong in a women's prison. Not even when they've got a penis and two rapes behind them.

Nobody is fooled by this doublethink, not even the people perpetuating it.

Following on from this. I shall post some of the studies with those statistics regarding the physical advantages that male people have over female people even after transitioning.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Two studies reviewing the same group of studies and reaching the same conclusions.

And let's not forget that there is now a stronger discussion that those males can adapt their training and reverse some of those losses almost completely.

What are you actually trying to say here with: "Some are bigger than others and can overtake smaller cis female prisoners. Should we just organize prisons by strength and size then?"

yes, females can and may abuse and assault other females. The damage and the risk involved is considered less than the damage inflicted by any male assaulting a female. Even one with lowered testosterone.

Published today by sex matters.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/what-did-we-learn-from-the-census/

Points of note:

Transwomen are 5 times more likely to be convicted sex offenders than other males.

Murder rates for transpeople are 10 times lower than for the general population.

Some of you are hungry to twist my words because it suits your argument.

I'm not homophobic, I'm bi myself. I was pointing out that the argument many of you are making about cis women feeling uncomfortable when they're showering because they share a cell with someone who might be attracted to them can be used against lesbians and bisexual women.

Yes, men are vastly more likely to commit sexual/violent offenses than women. However, if a female inmate is in a high-security prison because she committed a violent/sexual crime, then she is surrounded by women who have also committed a violent/sexual crime.

"The rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization is at least 3 times higher for females (13.7%) than males (4.2%). This has been attributed to the fact that a majority of prison officials do not view female-on-female sexual assault as “true rape,” making them less likely to reprimand inmates." bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/pdca12.pdf

"Rates of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization in the previous 6 months were highest for female inmates (212 per 1,000), more than four times higher than male rates (43 per 1,000)."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/

Women are not powerless -- we can help transgender people out. Transwomen were some of the most important figures in securing gay rights in American history.

You all are rabid -- I have a job!!! I don't have time to respond 24/7. I know MN is notorious for these debates and wanted to share my opinion. The back-to-back piling on I'm receiving right now reflects the echo chamber you've all made for yourselves.

in the time it took you to write out that little deflecting rant you could have actually answered my question. just saying...

I knew I had seen that Williams Institute posted before. Quite a number of times actually. So I have copied this post I did after I discovered some more documentation on this study.

I believe this document discusses those crime statistics and I am happy to discuss it with you.

escholarship.org/content/qt7c3704zg/qt7c3704zg.pdf?t=qqfomk&v=lg

It refers to 369 trans people vs 435 061 people who were not trans identified in a study.

How strange that that was not mentioned at all in the press release!!

I might have forgotten most of what I learned from my Statistics module at uni but 0.0008 is not a population that you could draw many confident conclusions from. And it would be ridiculous to make the comparison.

Think about this from the point of view that women around the world admit they don’t bother to report their sexual assaults and rapes. Because they have no confidence that they will get justice AND not be vilified in the process.

What % of females actively reporting their attacks vs current trend of not bothering to report would decimate that 369 figure?

And that number cannot be accurately depicted in this point either;

”About half of all violent victimizations were not reported to police. Transgender people were as likely as cisgender people to report violence to police.”

Sure this 'maybe'. However, I believe the huge number of women telling us they don’t report.

This article is misrepresenting the reality.

I also bring to your attention this as it is relevant to your claim:

"They face 4x as much violence as cis people:"

”Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault”

Including! Notice it says ‘including’!

Not ”Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault.”

What was NOT included was a handy breakdown of what constituted the crimes against trans people were. What was the bar for a hate crime being committed for instance? Misogyny? Does that fit the definition that holds for transphobic hate crimes?

And based on 369 people, I am not going to delve into that national dataset to look for it. I don’t have the will. Maybe if you wish to prove your point, you could link to that data with the breakdown of the actual crimes reported for those 369 people.

Now, one of the findings in your article was:

“One in four transgender women who were victimized thought the incident was a hate crime compared to less than one in ten cisgender women.”

How many females being taught how to accurately assess the motivation against them as to whether it constituted a hate crime, or indeed using the very same frames of reference as trans people do but based on sexism, and then reanswering that same survey would again make that point meaningless? Is misogyny a ‘hate crime’ for instance?

Do you understand the significance of what centuries of oppression of females has done on being able to accurately assess the motivation of crimes against our sex?

I am beginning to. The trans lobby groups are informing my learnings. Because of what they classify as ‘transphobic hate crimes’ when I look at what I have experienced as a female… wow! I sure have overlooked a huge amount of what I just waved away as crap from males.

And that the group who are trans could include many of those reporting abuse that includes misgendering and perceived micro-aggressions. Gosh, imagine if women reported all the hateful things said and done to them on a daily basis.

Crimes that cause harm and pain to anyone should be fully investigated and justice served.

But if a claim such as ”Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault.” is going to be made by any institution or poster, it needs to be based on some very robust data.

Plus it should not be able to be argued against using other knowledge such as the prevalence of females who don’t report their rapes and attacks.

Because it then fails to show integrity by making any reference to those other studies and statistics. It may not even need to make adjustments for that information, but it should make the reader aware of the limitations of the study and its conclusions.

Thank you for posting the link..

By the way, I post this for the reader’s benefit. Because, I am sure you already looked further than the article to verify what it reported. I am very happy to discuss the numbers and the findings based on your interpretation now that I have started to scratch the surface of the article’s findings.