Beauty students asked to strip in front of trans rapist at college AFTER sex attacks

[scratchedbymycat]

My AIBU title taken from this news article:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/beauty-students-asked-strip-front-29063499

This whole 'Isla Bryson' cluster-fuck has me angrier than I can describe.

These girls had to accept and trust this vile individual in their beauty course on the basis of Isla's claim to be a woman, nothing more. They even tolerated abuse from Isla.

They were not told this individual was facing charges of rape. The college claim they didn't know either. Because 'Isla' said he was a women, these young women felt they had no choice but to strip to virtually naked in front of him. Failing to do so would be 'bigoted'.

But he also happens to be a serial rapist. Young women, some possibly aged 16 or so, stripping to virtually naked while a serial rapist watches. If this was my daughter I would be going mad.

Where is the safeguarding?

AIBU to feel viscerally angry with all our politicians about this?

Exactly and could lead to all manner of implications. Essentially what this doctor is doing is lying to vulnerable women to get them to engage in his fantasy of providing intimate examinations of women who would not let a man do that. He is touching their private parts without their full informed consent. Sure there’s a name for that!

Further to 'Isla Bryson' - transgender serial rapist - wanting to be in a female prison....

Further to 'Isla Bryson' already using her 'woman's right' to watch young girls strip naked ...

This article detailing the experience of a female inmate forced to share space with dangerous transgender prisoners.

She actually had a coil fitted, while in prison, because she was so scared she'd be raped and end up pregnant with a rapists child.

"She said: “My whole time in prison on constant high alert, my nerves were frazzled with fear.

“These incredibly violent men were walking around the communal shower area naked and sometimes clearly aroused. Myself and other women were in cubicles with only a curtain to protect us.
“I was shaking with fear. In the end I went to the prison clinic and had a coil fitted because I believed I could be raped at any time. I didn’t want one, I felt forced to do it."

Full article here:

Ex-prisoner was 'shaking with fear' while sharing shower block with violent trans inmates at Scots prison

t.co/6R6FRhzHGg

But is this not exactly what people are trying to change. I don't care if a man sees me naked, I don't care if a doctor is male or female. I don't feel threatened by men. The defining point of feminism is equality it's not an unfair advantage over men which is what people are advocating. I don't want to be treat different to men, I don't want woman to have to have a "safe" space away from men, what we want is a society where sex doesn't even come into it. Where it's fine to show some boob, chest, leg etc. I think the whole trans debated has highlighted how we still separate by sex when it isn't needed!

It IS needed.

You are in the minority. That's fine. So am I, in some respects. I don't have any issues with men seeing me naked in certain situations.

It is NOT your or my right to demand that all other women and girls be okay with it.

Sex will ALWAYS come into it, and I'm afraid your ridiculous idea that someday it won't means that I cannot take your views or opinions on this seriously.

YOU are part of the problem. How dare you blithely advocate for women and girls to have no right of consent. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Grumpybutfunny · Today 12:06

But is this not exactly what people are trying to change. I don't care if a man sees me naked, I don't care if a doctor is male or female. I don't feel threatened by men.

Well, that's all well and good for you, but what about the large number of women and girls who are uncomfortable with it and do feel threatened? Do they not matter to you?

The defining point of feminism is equality it's not an unfair advantage over men which is what people are advocating.

I don't see it as women having an unfair advantage over men, simply the right to privacy, dignity and safety.

I am a man.

@Grumpybutfunny

I don't feel threatened by men.

Maybe you don't, but I suspect you live in an nice little ivory tower where ideas are prioritised over reality.

Do you care at all about Amanda Benson, the ex-con in the article I linked to in my previous post? Or do you think she's lying about what she saw and experienced.

If you don't care about her, please tell me why, because this baffles me.

What a naive comment, and dangerous attitude. Really, what planet do you actually live on?? Do you think we can just magic things into being lovely for everyone by pretending or saying some happy sounding words?

I am happy you don't need same sex spaces. However I'm sure you understand you don't have the right to consent for other women who do mind?

I don't follow how not wanting to have a male conduct my smear test is me having an unfair advantage over them? Could you elaborate?

I share your desire for sex not to matter ( beyond maternity obviously) however we live in a society built upon the opression of women, which still opresses women. Taking away our means to describe this opression doesn't make it disappear. It is woven into our misogynist culture and into the structures of many organisations and institutions. I don't believe that pretending it isn't happening has helped with any other protected characteristic so I'm unsure why it would with sex?

Please could you explain how the very limited public debate that has been allowed on trans rights has led to your conclusion that single sex spaces aren't important?

I am really done with people playing these silly games at this point. If you're still playing in the face of what happened, and the threat of Scott in a women's prison, then you are getting your needs met in some way by men abusing women, and I'm not engaging.

Any woman is free to get her kit off and martyr her body to any male at any time that she feels so inclined. I'm slightly worried about any woman who feels this is some kind of social responsibility but their body, their choice.

Meanwhile, no, violent sex offending men have no place ever in women's prisons.

Maybe once we reach the mythical utopia where men as a class do not pose a potential risk to women as a class, I'll accept not differentiating between the sexes.

And good for you if you don't feel threatened by men. I, however, do.

Why?

I feel threatened by unfamilar men because I've been constantly molested by various boys and men since childhood. Starting from when I was four by my stepbrother, father and neighbourhood boys and men. I was also witness to seeing my father almost kill my mother before my eyes and battering his own mother. 30+ years and years of therapy later, I still go into high alert whenever I am alone with unfamiliar men. It is an involuntary protective mechanism borne out of my life experience as a woman that male humans can be potentially dangerous.

You, in your privileged position of not fearing men, do not get to tell me or any other woman what our boundaries and safe spaces should be given the realities of the world we live in. You attempting to do so speaks for your arrogance, ignorance and misogyny.

THIS.

I am thoroughly done with it and I will be calling it out in the strongest terms, every single time.

Look, all this focus on this person being charged with rape, so isn't it disgusting they women have to undress in front of him, is a red herring.

Most rapes are not reported, most reported rapes do not get as far as charge and prosecution, let alone conviction. We can't select to keep the rapey men away from women and girls as we have no way of knowing which of the men are rapists. That's why we keep all men away.

And also, and this is important, really, really important. Women and girls are not obliged to get naked in front of men because those men are nice and not rapey. Most women do not want to be naked around men they are not intimate with, even if those men are nice. I really like my male colleagues. I still don't want to be butt naked in front of them. And I would stop thinking they were nice if they expected me too.

Women and girls boundaries are not only being destroyed but are also being stigmatised by this ideology.

You don't want women to be safe?

Well, if you don't understand the concept of risk, perhaps keep your beak out and let others who do, do the job.

This is all just woke bullshit. No woman in her right mind would allow that rapist to rent her spare room for example. It is easy enough to type complete and utter bollocks on the interweb to make yourself look like some sort of utopia guru but back in the real world, we understand risk and we mitigate for it.

And also, and this is important, really, really important. Women and girls are not obliged to get naked in front of men because those men are nice and not rapey. Most women do not want to be naked around men they are not intimate with, even if those men are nice. I really like my male colleagues. I still don't want to be butt naked in front of them. And I would stop thinking they were nice if they expected me too.

Women and girls boundaries are not only being destroyed but are also being stigmatised by this ideology.

This. It's so important and needs repeating over and over, since so many people seem not to get it!

The defining point of feminism is equality it's not an unfair advantage over men which is what people are advocating. I don't want to be treat different to men, I don't want woman to have to have a "safe" space away from men, what we want is a society where sex doesn't even come into it

So your argument is that we should live our lives how the world should be, not how it is?

So, presumably you think people should not lock their doors because burglary should not happen, we should not have health and safety legislation as employers and traders should not be putting anyone at risk, there should be no laws as there should be no crimes, no dbs checks as there should be no paedophiles, and there should be no police or courts or prisons as no-one should commit crimes, and no trade unions as employers should treat employees well.

I take it that this is how you think the world should be organised now? Or is it just women and girls who should be put at risk by being forced to live as the world should be rather than how it is? And if so, why only them?

@Grumpybutfunny
The defining point of feminism is equality
No it isn't. Feminism is a political movement for the autonomy and liberation of women from male rule and male violence.

it's not an unfair advantage over men which is what people are advocating.
Women don't have an advantage over men. No one is advocating for that.

I don't want to be treat different to men, I don't want woman to have to have a "safe" space away from men, what we want is a society where sex doesn't even come into it
Men don't menstruate, miscarry or breastfeed. They don't need access to spaces designed for women to do those things.
Men don't risk unwanted pregnancy after a sexual assault.

Sex isn't an issue most of the time. Its not an issue in most jobs. Its not an issue most of the time in parenting, or who does the household chores.
When it does matter is when people of either sex want privacy or dignity of a single sex space, or when women are at risk from male behaviour.

@AlisonDonut I would put all stranger rapists to death so he wouldn't be around to rent the room. I would put most criminals to death. But if he did get in the room no I wouldn't feel threatened by him being there. Do you know why, because I was brought up to look after myself and would stand a good chance of defending myself. We as a society encourage woman to be scared of threats not to rise up and be stronger, fitter and faster. If you want protection surely you would be better with males not inclined to rape also being in the room, as he would be strong enough to over power the man your afraid of and don't want to be stronger than.

If your so determined he doesn't see you in underwear do you never sunbath in swimwear or shock horror topless? Have you never worked out in a bra and cycling shorts? Do you not wear tight clothes? Do you never walk through the woods at night?

Yes I live in a nice area and no I would never want to live in a city. I'm raising a boy in a time where being flirty like his dad was to me could be seen as sexual harassment so yes I will defend the right of boys to also be safe, free and empowered over a fear of being attacked. Do you know why, because crime is thankfully rare in this country. I have also watched a boy I grew up with defend himself against false accusations, the pain he went through as the weaker girl had to be telling the truth was unreal. I never want to see someone I know go through something like that again so yes I will shout for a society where we are all equal, where being seen undressed by opposite sex is as normal as picking up a pint of milk. Because only then can we say the genders are equal, when we stop segregating ourselves over the shape of our bodies!!

Finally the bullying that goes on in girls bathrooms is a lot more scarring than some boy making a sexual pass.

We as a society encourage woman to be scared of threats not to rise up and be stronger, fitter and faster.

Don't be utterly stupid. Do you know anything at all about male vs. female physiology?? Do you understand anything about fight/flight/freeze response to danger?

I am so fucked off with this nonsense. Standing there in the tight pink leggings with his balls showing through. You are a MAN, you predatory freak.

Bully for you not caring about men seeing you naked. Do you think that means all women should feel the same?

I don't feel threatened by men but there is no disputing that some men are a threat to women and I keep that in mind in order to maintain my safety. I have no idea which men are a threat so I have to treat them all with a degree of suspicion. The kind that would make me most suspicious are those trying to gain access to spaces where women can't escape from them or are in states of undress and therefore vulnerable.

Is the defining point of feminism equality? I think you'll find that second wave feminists believe in women's liberation. The patriarchy is shit for most people so being treated "equally" in a shit system designed by men, for men doesn't feel like a big win.

You seem to think that women being treated differently to men is a sign of inferiority or weakness in our sex, I dare you to have a similar conversation with someone with a disability. Sometimes different treatment is entirely justified and is actually the most civilised and decent approach to things. Thank god most people understand this.

Segregation by sex will no longer be needed when there are no men posing a danger to women, until then we practice safeguarding to protect against the lowest common denominator in society rather than thinking that most men aren't predators so we'll play Russian roulette with women's safety. This is exactly the same as security measures at airports, I'm not a terrorist but accept that I have to be willing to be scrutinized with that possibility in mind if I want to fly safely.

You are stupid beyond help. Really. What utter nonsense.

And just in case the above is considered a personal attack, I'll rephrase here.

That is stupid beyond help. Really. What utter nonsense.

I repeat, YOU are directly part of the problem that faces women and girls. And children/young people of both sexes, for that matter.

I love men, there are plenty of decent ones. I love sex and love having plenty of it. I will happily wear a bikini or fairly scant clothing on a beach or in very hot weather. That is MY CHOICE, in a setting that is WITHIN MY CONTROL and which I happily CONSENT to.

NONE of that translates to any woman or girl anywhere needing to be happy with being undressed/near undressed/in the intimate company of a man if it makes her uncomfortable.

You are an MRA's wet dream.

And why only stranger rapists, why not all rapists?

I mean I'm against the death penalty

What the hell happened there?

I know this comments will get deleted and it probably should, but there's simply no polite way to say it.

You, sir, are an idiot.