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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if manager did this deliberately

182 replies

Eastie77Returns · 26/01/2023 22:38

I had my annual pay review today over a call. My manager opened the document up on a shared screen and began talking me through it. It was immediately clear to me I was looking at someone else’s document and the base pay was completely different to mine. Overall this person is paid £80k more than me. I was so stunned at this discrepancy I could not register what my manager was saying to me. After a few minutes she ‘realised’ the mistake and shut down the document.

She is usually meticulous and can’t believe this was an error so I think for some reason she wants me to know. She made a point of telling me at the start of the call that she had just finished ‘Jane’s’ pay review (my colleague) so I don’t know if I’m suppose to conclude this is Jane’s pay.

Needless to say I am job hunting.

I am so confounded by this whole situation, I am just in a daze. I knew people in my team were paid different amounts but never dreamt the discrepancy could be so wide. I think I am probably the lowest paid member of the team.

OP posts:
Eastie77Returns · 30/01/2023 13:29

Commmission seems to vary around the organisation and even within teams. As with pay there is no transparency. My commission is based on a % split with my salary. My team mates should be the same but who knows.

Yes 'Jane' was recently promoted so I'd expect there to be a difference in salary. However based on the difference now it's clear that even when she worked on my level she earned a lot more.

I don't know if the pay I saw was Jane's or someone else. I wouldn't have thought of her at all had the manager not made of point of telling me she had just given Jane her pay review. The reason I suspected this whole thing is deliberate is that the letter we receive clearly starts "Dear [name], thank your for your contribution this year blah blah" and then details your new pay. My manager would have opened that file, scanned it to see the [name] at the top of the document before putting it on screen share. So it's really difficult to understand how she accidentally though it was mine. When the screen share begain she scrolled up so I couldn't see the first line of the letter with the [name] so again, all felt a bit deliberate.

OP posts:
E17Stowmum · 30/01/2023 15:23

There are some really reflective and self-aware posts on this thread that should be an inspiration - or insight - for any woman in mid-career.
Is there any way of condensing/collating these contributions and sharing more widely? C'mon you techie gals!

Mumof3andshattered · 30/01/2023 15:44

You're not doing the same job if she got promoted.

eastegg · 30/01/2023 16:39

Eastie77Returns · 26/01/2023 23:50

Yes we do the same job. Jane was recently promoted. Even allowing for that, the discrepancy is too much.

Sorry, not rtft, but you don’t know it’s Jane do you? Could it be someone else for whom the difference would make more sense?

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 30/01/2023 20:00

Good grief! And some people wonder why certain public sector workers are striking!!!!

ALongHardWinter · 31/01/2023 01:19

£80K more than you?! Is that a typo?!

FannyChmelar · 31/01/2023 08:55

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 30/01/2023 20:00

Good grief! And some people wonder why certain public sector workers are striking!!!!

Exactly. And I’d wager that paramedics, nurses, doctors and teachers work more hours and are under more real stress than those earning crazy amounts in the private sector. Jobs which are literally life and death and those which…aren’t.

DesertRose64 · 31/01/2023 09:41

I suspect many of the fat cats within the NHS and other public sector organizations are also earning way more than the paramedics, doctors etc mentioned above.

Eastie77Returns · 31/01/2023 09:47

FannyChmelar · 31/01/2023 08:55

Exactly. And I’d wager that paramedics, nurses, doctors and teachers work more hours and are under more real stress than those earning crazy amounts in the private sector. Jobs which are literally life and death and those which…aren’t.

I think it depends on the job. I work in IT, an industry which typically pays a high salaries to people with specialist skills, many of whom build complex systems that support Public Sector infrastructure including the health service. Many IT professionals have worked and studied for years to achieve their qualifications and the work they do can be stressful.

OP posts:
Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 31/01/2023 14:13

"@Eastie77returns
I'm sure we can all point to our specialist skils, qualifications, years of training and stressful jobs but just to say NHS IT systems are generally rubbish, probably related to NHS IT managers making bad choices.
As a former ITU nursing sister with one of my sons currently working as a junior doctor in A&E, earning way, way less than you, it would be lovely if you could use your influence and specialist skills to improve his and his colleagues' working life with better, fit for purpose IT systems.
Re your original post you may want to point out that your manager has breached 'Jane's' confidence and has contravened the Data Protection Act. Probs best to do that only if you really are looking for another job though

Plbrookes · 31/01/2023 14:25

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 31/01/2023 14:13

"@Eastie77returns
I'm sure we can all point to our specialist skils, qualifications, years of training and stressful jobs but just to say NHS IT systems are generally rubbish, probably related to NHS IT managers making bad choices.
As a former ITU nursing sister with one of my sons currently working as a junior doctor in A&E, earning way, way less than you, it would be lovely if you could use your influence and specialist skills to improve his and his colleagues' working life with better, fit for purpose IT systems.
Re your original post you may want to point out that your manager has breached 'Jane's' confidence and has contravened the Data Protection Act. Probs best to do that only if you really are looking for another job though

Except OP doesn't know at all if it was Jane's data. Or even if it was just a template.

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 31/01/2023 18:03

Fair point, it's not clear in the original post, she's just made that assumption

Overgrowngrasslady · 31/01/2023 18:10

Op is the commission not performance/results related? The vast majority of this difference is commission. Which if it’s results based Ie sales made, then Jane is hugely out performing uou. And I’d pay my top sales person a higher base than a poorer performer. I am sorry

I think the key is why is the commission so adrift. She’s earning about 5o k more on commission alone.

NeedNwJeans · 01/02/2023 16:07

@Overgrowngrasslady I assume OP saw OTE (On target earnings) number which contains base + commission. It is not guaranteed salary, and the actual commission earned is tracked some other way. So OTE for same team members should be similar/within a range.

Ellyesse · 01/02/2023 20:34

FannyChmelar · 31/01/2023 08:55

Exactly. And I’d wager that paramedics, nurses, doctors and teachers work more hours and are under more real stress than those earning crazy amounts in the private sector. Jobs which are literally life and death and those which…aren’t.

My thoughts entirely and - although I wasn't paying full attention - I think it's what Alan Johnson was saying on the radio 4, PM program about the strikes today. Namely that the people in the public service sector get such ridiculously low salaries and poor pay rises compared with private sector. He said private sector pay rises were all in double figures and public sector workers have had enough of seeing how low their pay is by comparison. Mind you it was ever thus. My husband was a Teacher near the top in terms of Seniority. He died suddenly years ago, but even then the pupils used to laugh at the battered old cars the Staff drove and really looked down on Teachers for their low lifestyles compared with their Dad's incomes from the City and even from jobs not particularly illustrious but where they had their own Company. We were trapped on a certain income, and that meant camping in the UK not flying abroad on holiday, even in those days. But to return to the OP:
I am still not sure that this debate about the £80k in itself is the main point.
I think the point is, the Boss's revelation of 'somebody's' pay which was astronomical and the mention of 'having just done' Jane's review, were both deliberate. There's no doubt there. I actually wonder if the £80k was real or just created to arouse our OP's distress.
I wonder what this boss is actually doing? I think it is deliberate and underhand. The above point, seeing the Pay Form, should be raised as a complaint. I certainly do not trust her. OP has given many examples of her bullying. The fact that 2 people have left and another (or maybe one of them?) suffered mental illness through her is a terrible thing.
I suspect this woman is trying to get a very good and conscientious Employee to leave. This raises the terrible issue as to why?

Indeed, the experience OP has described in the Company, despite her having shown great willing to do anything that comes along, plus trying to approach the bosses for encouragement etc. has been cruel. In the posts here, OP has given examples of them ignoring her or deliberately leaving her out, to the point where she tells us, '"My face doesn’t fit at this company which I’m actually not taking personally, I think it’s a cultural (mis)fit."
As I said in so many words before, that distressed me enormously. Nobody should ever feel their face does not fit. But to feel that the reason behind it

is because that the people at work, the Bosses, find you a 'cultural (mis)fit' and others do not include you and do not give you a chance to progress within the Company despite you are doing everything you can and doing what they say - this is unforgivable! On top of which you discover you are paid massively below other people! Nobody should have to go to work carrying that burden, feeling left out because of of a reason like that. It just should never exist.

I really think we are tiptoeing around the crux of this matter - and I understand why. But we must support our fellow MN member about this. I know it's a very difficult subject. But she has bravely said she feels this and she only feels this because of the way they are treating her! Talking about comparative pay rises is not going to address this, at least not now we know how she feels and that the pay differential is a real problem whatever the Document was.

I really do think, Eastie77Returns, you deserve support on this issue. Do you belong to a Union? Can you look up support there? I would look up how to make a complaint about this document you saw and I would add to it that you feel you are being kept from progressing despite that you try and you do everything you should. You have given all your evidence here. I think you need to say you think the reason this Company or this Boss (but the others did not answer your approach to them so it seems like it is across the whole place) are keeping you from advancing and, worse maybe, holding you down on a vastly lower pay than you should receive is because you come from a different culture.
Obviously you'll be looking for a better job elsewhere, but I would definitely get advice, from your Union, and a Solicitor. Please do this. These people must be stopped. It is very unfair to use you as the one to challenge their toxic ways, but sadly you are the person who is there and the only one who can do it. I'm so terribly sorry this has happened. In the end it might be for the best. You are in a position to do so much good. Think of the many other women like you whom they would bully if you leave and nothing is done. I promise you, once you ask for help people will support you. Years ago I reported a Boss and thought I'd never get a position in that profession again. As soon as I reported her, the local Head Office fell all over me and could not do enough to help me. They had wanted to do something about her for years but had no means to step in. You have the law on your side and many people will be willing to help.
But dwelling on the actual figure £80k won't get us anywhere. It's kind of not seeing the wood for the trees. The wood is that this company has a toxic attitude to OP's culture, and is taking it out on her by making her upset about her pay so that she will leave. They have already been ignoring her and leaving her out and not giving her opportunities. All of what they are doing is against the law. The law is on Eastie77Returns's side. And getting the right help isn't difficult, just google it.
Good luck Eastie77Returns. We are all here for you.
I do hope this helps.

Plbrookes · 01/02/2023 21:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ChilliBandit · 01/02/2023 22:32

Erm… what?

Plbrookes · 02/02/2023 07:00

We're just making things up now aren't we? Or have I misunderstood?

ChilliBandit · 02/02/2023 08:40

@Plbrookes - I mean it was verbose, but your comment just looks bizarre

Plbrookes · 02/02/2023 10:09

Sorry you don't understand it. I'm not sure how I can help you with that though.

ChilliBandit · 02/02/2023 11:53

@Plbrookes - I understood the content but not why you felt the need to say it. Don’t worry about an explanation, it will likely be about as coherent as your previous comment

Ellyesse · 02/02/2023 12:12

Plbrookes ·ChilliBandit · Your personal attacks are not acceptable and you do not explain what you mean or add anything to the discussion that could help the OP. Any more unsubstantiated and unreasonable ad hominem attacks and I shall have to make a complaint.

Maybe you cannot understand how awful it feels for someone when they feel, as the OP said, "My face doesn’t fit at this company" and how uncomfortable it is when the reason behind it, is, as she said, "a cultural (mis)fit."
That needs to be addressed. Nobody should be made to feel like that. Not for any reason.

ChilliBandit · 02/02/2023 13:00

@Ellyesse - I haven’t personally attacked anyone?! I was pulling up someone insulting you ffs. Please do complain 🙄

Ellyesse · 02/02/2023 18:16

ChilliBandit · 02/02/2023 13:00

@Ellyesse - I haven’t personally attacked anyone?! I was pulling up someone insulting you ffs. Please do complain 🙄

Oh ChilliBandit! I am so sorry! I was so punched in the gut by the remarks of Plbrookes I simply could not think straight!! How can I apologise? You were being so decent. Thank you! I am recovering and can see properly now what you said, so very many thanks and a million apologies for being so stupid! 🤭

Eastie77Returns · 04/02/2023 10:44

I had a follow up meeting with the manager. Decided to cut to the chase and discuss the pay discrepancy. She actually chuckled and said “oh that was the of someone senior to you so don’t worry about it” She was totally unconcerned about the potential breach of confidentiality. She then said if I want to be promoted and in that kind of pay band I need to display certain behaviours and skills and showed me a new framework outlining this.

We went through it and I was able to give her a concrete example of where I had met each of the criteria. She seemed momentarily nonplussed and then said well promotion is also linked to me living the company’s culture and values which are very vague terms like ‘being courageous’ and ‘bringing joy to our customers’. I need to show examples of where my behaviour specifically maps to each of these nebulous values. It felt as this was just completely made up in the moment in a bid to justify not promoting me.

The meeting ended with me attempting to go back to the pay issue and she snapped that she has had non-stop problems with “this team complaining about pay over the last couple of weeks” and she has had enough. She advised me to write down my thoughts and feelings about it as that would help me process everything🙄

Thank you if you’ve got this far. I’ve already started my job hunt but in this market it could take a while. In the meantime I need tips on how to survive reporting into this woman. Others have simply given up and left (without a job to go to) and another colleague suffered so badly he had a breakdown. Friends have told me to just keep my head down, do the bare minimum and ignore her. I want to do that but it’s very difficult. Also drives us (the team) bonkers to see her picking up awards such as ‘Mental First Aider of the Quarter’ for her outstanding contribution to mental health awareness!

OP posts: