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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU not to explain why a 7yr old can't go in the gents?

543 replies

FlyingPi · 25/01/2023 23:42

I'm sure this has been discussed before. When we're out and my boy needs the toilet, I make him come into the Ladies with me. Problem is, he's starting to complain about it and wants to go in the Gents on his own. I have let him do this in one particular place where there's never anyone about, so I knew he wouldn't encounter anyone at the urinals. I'm always honest with him but I don't quite know how to explain why I'm not letting him do this anywhere else, like at the swimming pool/gym toilets.
He knows about the Pants rules and personal space and consent but I don't exactly want to spell out what I'm worried about. What do you tell your kids?

OP posts:
Patineur · 26/01/2023 10:35

CellophaneFlower · 26/01/2023 10:30

Perverts aside, from what I hear from my OH, men's loos are often not the cleanest. I always check the ladies cubicle before I send mine in, the thought of them entering God knows what filth is something I prefer to delay for as long as I can.

My swimming pool has unisex changing villages, with mostly large cubicles. I wouldn't take them anywhere that didn't, if they wouldn't be allowed in with me, for a good few years yet.

I don't find ladies are exactly hygienic, mostly because of hoverers who drip all over the seat and don't bother to clean up after themselves.

AxisOfEviI · 26/01/2023 10:36

I understand perfectly thank you

No. You don't.

Ignoring you from now on too.

Patineur · 26/01/2023 10:37

AxisOfEviI · 26/01/2023 10:35

I'll just ignore you from now on. :-)

Show quote history

That's OK, it's a discussion, the point is that the dishonest/unsustainable arguments get highlighted to anyone reading them.

CellophaneFlower · 26/01/2023 10:38

Patineur · 26/01/2023 10:35

I don't find ladies are exactly hygienic, mostly because of hoverers who drip all over the seat and don't bother to clean up after themselves.

Show quote history

Well, yes. But men also seem to hover whilst they shit it seems.

TheWelshTart · 26/01/2023 10:38

Blimey some people are getting all mixed up in their busy name swapping 😂

Patineur · 26/01/2023 10:40

What if a six year old girl doesn't want older women in her toilets? Does she get to dictate that everyone vacates?

don't be soft, that kind of idiocy just derails the conversation.

No, what derails the conversation is the assumption that a 6 year old "not wanting" a 7 year old boy there was on its own a valid reason for saying the 7 year old shouldn't be there. It's simply taking the argument to its logical conclusion.

booboo82 · 26/01/2023 10:43

FlyingPi · 25/01/2023 23:53

He has just turned 7.
Obviously he's perfectly able to use a toilet himself, but the idea of him seeing grown men using urinals, or - even if it's a small chance - someone dodgy approaching him, worries me. We all know there are flashers and worse about, I saw them when I was a kid and so did most women I know.
At some point he just won't agree to go in the ladies, hopefully by then he'll be ready to handle any bad situations.

I'm sorry what ? Lol

Brefugee · 26/01/2023 10:44

If we're concerned that it's not safe for women to have one 7yo boy man in the ladies, why would you think it was safe for a woman caring for a disabled man to go into the gents?

it's not that it's not "safe" to have a 7 year old boy in the ladies. It is that it isn't always appropriate and there may be girls who don't want/like that. They should also be considered.

I simply refuse to believe that all men's toilets at all times have some kind of perv waiting to jump on a child or a carer. Although i am prepared to believe that it does happen, and obviously it happens more often than we a) hear about and b) is acceptable (where 0 is acceptable, and anything more is not acceptable)

I am making the point, which is consistently and deliberately missed so often in these discussions, that it is ALWAYS women's toilets that are this safe haven of cleanliness and calm tolerance. Even if they were (they are not all like that) the reason they are so is because they are women's facilities. And that having achieved toilet nirvana women shouldn't be simply expected to always shove over.

Where i live most public toilets have a spray thing on the wall where you can put anti-bac spray on a wad of toilet paper to clean the seat before you use it. That is great.

So again: small boys going to the ladies with their mum is fine. Eventually gravitating to the men's is a rite of passage and it's not easy. So why aren't there billions of threads addressed at men telling them not to be such filthy and pervy gits in their toilets?

DangerNoodles · 26/01/2023 10:44

I challenge boys who look more than about 7 using the ladies.

Your lucky you didn't challenge my son, who looked 7 when he was only 5. What is your problem? It's this kind of excessive behaviour that makes it hard for us to be taken seriously when trying to protect women's spaces. Very young male children with thier mothers are not a risk to you.

SilentNightDancer · 26/01/2023 10:44

Patineur · 26/01/2023 10:40

What if a six year old girl doesn't want older women in her toilets? Does she get to dictate that everyone vacates?

don't be soft, that kind of idiocy just derails the conversation.

No, what derails the conversation is the assumption that a 6 year old "not wanting" a 7 year old boy there was on its own a valid reason for saying the 7 year old shouldn't be there. It's simply taking the argument to its logical conclusion.

The six-year-old girl is entitled to be in the women's toilets, as are other adult women.

Seven-year-old boys, in my opinion are borderline too old unless in a really shifty area.

And it seems as though 75% of people reading the thread agree with this view, especially as the boy has been asking to use the gents.

ChangedmynameagainforChristmas · 26/01/2023 10:47

I think it is down to your judgement here. If he is with you then he goes in the ladies and if he is with his father then he goes in the gents. He's only 7 and not an adult. If you decide otherwise it's up to you but I understand. I'm a mum and a grandma and have kept my boys in the ladies changing rooms with me when swimming up to about 7. Men's toilets are a bit scary aren't they ? Perhaps you could let him in there if it's only for a wee and linger around in the doorway

Brefugee · 26/01/2023 10:50

some comments on here are batshit
But I'm going back to the suggestion that completely gender neutral, closed cubicle, sink and bin toilets are also not acceptable because some people can't leave them in a fit state for the next person to use.

What do you suggest we have as an arrangement for public toilets? Because all the discussion I'm seeing here leads me to think that maybe we shouldn't have any if they're all so filthy and dangerous to use.

AxisOfEviI · 26/01/2023 10:53

What do you suggest we have as an arrangement for public toilets? Because all the discussion I'm seeing here leads me to think that maybe we shouldn't have any if they're all so filthy and dangerous to use

Mens
Womens
Disabled
The occasional third gender neutral for those who have special reasons.

neverknowinglyunreasonable · 26/01/2023 10:55

There should be a "Worst of Mumsnet" section where we can put threads that end up like this one.

OoooohMatron · 26/01/2023 10:59

DangerNoodles · 26/01/2023 10:44

I challenge boys who look more than about 7 using the ladies.

Your lucky you didn't challenge my son, who looked 7 when he was only 5. What is your problem? It's this kind of excessive behaviour that makes it hard for us to be taken seriously when trying to protect women's spaces. Very young male children with thier mothers are not a risk to you.

Well said. My nephew is extremely tall and looked 7/8 aged 5. He's 10 now and looks about 15.

MsRosley · 26/01/2023 11:00

antipodeancanary · 25/01/2023 23:55

Bananas. My boy went in the gents from being 5/6. Strong willed little git wouldn't have settled for anything less. I stood outside glaring at anyone I didn't like the look of. I timed him. I called out his name or even sent in random men to get him out. I would have gone in myself of course if he had been longer than a few minutes. But it was my problem, not his. I'm not creating a fear for him when none existed.

I think your behaviour would have told him there was plenty to fear.

Squiblet · 26/01/2023 11:01

I saw a thread like this regarding an older disabled male. His female carer had no option but to take him into the ladies and was given abuse.

but she could have used the men's? tbh it wouldn't bother me but since it clearly does bother some women (lots of women? most women? who knows) why not use the men's? can't men be inconvenienced for once? (tbh there should have been an accessible toilet, that is the real scandal here)

But who is being inconvenienced in this situation? The woman who finds she has no choice but to go into the gents, or the men already in there who see a woman come in?

I'd argue that the "minority" person - the one who is the only one of the opposite sex in a single-sex space - is always going to feel more embarrassed and inconvenienced than the "majority" who know they belong there. So, a man in a ladies' loos or a woman in a gents' loos.

You could argue that in any situation involving men and women, it's always the women who are at a disadvantage and are inconvenienced/embarrassed/endangered. But that's not necessarily true, and it risks a victim mentality. That poor disabled man probably didn't feel too comfortable in the ladies', what with the abuse his carer was taking. (Agreed about the need for an accessible toilet.)

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 26/01/2023 11:02

GrandTheftWalrus · 26/01/2023 03:01

My 6yo daughter goes to the loo alone when we are in the pub. However the table we sit at is right across from the disabled one and she goes in there. If she goes to the main ladies I go in after 5 mins.

Wondered how long it would be. Before someone suggested the disabled loo. So it’s OK for a perfectly able bodied child who can and has used the main ladies to use a disabled loo, while someone disabled who can’t use able bodied facilities has to wait ? Entitled.

BlueBooh · 26/01/2023 11:02

GoodChat · 26/01/2023 00:23

He's asking to use the men's toilets. He's ready.

Exactly!! He's uncomfortable in the ladies loo now so why are you forcing him?

Very odd.

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 26/01/2023 11:03

Squiblet · 26/01/2023 11:01

I saw a thread like this regarding an older disabled male. His female carer had no option but to take him into the ladies and was given abuse.

but she could have used the men's? tbh it wouldn't bother me but since it clearly does bother some women (lots of women? most women? who knows) why not use the men's? can't men be inconvenienced for once? (tbh there should have been an accessible toilet, that is the real scandal here)

But who is being inconvenienced in this situation? The woman who finds she has no choice but to go into the gents, or the men already in there who see a woman come in?

I'd argue that the "minority" person - the one who is the only one of the opposite sex in a single-sex space - is always going to feel more embarrassed and inconvenienced than the "majority" who know they belong there. So, a man in a ladies' loos or a woman in a gents' loos.

You could argue that in any situation involving men and women, it's always the women who are at a disadvantage and are inconvenienced/embarrassed/endangered. But that's not necessarily true, and it risks a victim mentality. That poor disabled man probably didn't feel too comfortable in the ladies', what with the abuse his carer was taking. (Agreed about the need for an accessible toilet.)

Surely this is an argument for more disabled facilities to be made available as they’re unisex.

Eyerollcentral · 26/01/2023 11:05

Squiblet · 26/01/2023 11:01

I saw a thread like this regarding an older disabled male. His female carer had no option but to take him into the ladies and was given abuse.

but she could have used the men's? tbh it wouldn't bother me but since it clearly does bother some women (lots of women? most women? who knows) why not use the men's? can't men be inconvenienced for once? (tbh there should have been an accessible toilet, that is the real scandal here)

But who is being inconvenienced in this situation? The woman who finds she has no choice but to go into the gents, or the men already in there who see a woman come in?

I'd argue that the "minority" person - the one who is the only one of the opposite sex in a single-sex space - is always going to feel more embarrassed and inconvenienced than the "majority" who know they belong there. So, a man in a ladies' loos or a woman in a gents' loos.

You could argue that in any situation involving men and women, it's always the women who are at a disadvantage and are inconvenienced/embarrassed/endangered. But that's not necessarily true, and it risks a victim mentality. That poor disabled man probably didn't feel too comfortable in the ladies', what with the abuse his carer was taking. (Agreed about the need for an accessible toilet.)

‘You could argue that in any situation involving men and women, it's always the women who are at a disadvantage and are inconvenienced/embarrassed/endangered. But that's not necessarily true, and it risks a victim mentality’ WTF are you on about. A male disabled man in public in the care of a female carer who for some reason hasn’t the wit to access a disabled access toilet is a fairly niche problem. Not sure at all what you are trying to say except women should let anyone in anywhere anytime if it means someone else isn’t going to be inconvenienced. Christ.

ShakespearesBlister · 26/01/2023 11:09

Why don't you just buy a Radar key like this on eBay for a few quid and let him use disabled toilets, provided there isn't a disabled person needing it? They are universal and open any disabled toilets.

AIBU not to explain why a 7yr old can't go in the gents?
Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 26/01/2023 11:10

borisescomb · 26/01/2023 10:22

"No one has a problem with a 7 year old boy going in to the toilet with his mum. Which is why the cut off is usually around age 8. But, additional needs aside, the mother does need to start planning that transition to them using the men's / boys toilet.

Most women manage that adequately. Some women thinks is acceptable to never bother, and continue to take their much older male child into the women's toilet, way past age 8, to keep him safe from other males."*
*
I agree with this. I'm also intrigued as to how you'd expect an 8 year old boy to fend off a dangerous male in this sort of environment. I think it's down to the mother to make the judgement. They know their children best. They shouldn't be accosted by idiots like the poster who admitted she verbally attacks young boys because nobody knows the reasoning behind why they are there and it still boils down to the fact that (whilst with their mother) they are not a threat.

I saw a thread like this regarding an older disabled male. His female carer had no option but to take him into the ladies and was given abuse.

I don't believe there should be gender neutral toilets. I do believe that people should exercise their brains and assess what is a threat and what isn't. Disabilities, children, people with chaperones for whatever reason are not a threat in my eyes.

Do you think the two school girls in the US who were raped by an alleged trans person in the girls toilets ‘exercised their brains and assessed the threat’ ?

CertainUncertain · 26/01/2023 11:11

I've only read to page 9, but I think this thread is batshit crazy.

This is mumsnet, where the majority of posters wouldn't want their husbands to help a young girl who went down the wrong escalator for fear they'd be accused of molestation. Mumsnet where a poster was advised not to allow her brother's friend (unknown to her) in her house for Christmas in case he snuck off and abused one of her children. Mumsnet where there is frenzied hysteria about trans women flashing their penises at the sinks in women's bathrooms. And the same people are totally, absolutely fine sending their 7-year-old boys alone into men's bathrooms?

I'm not overly paranoid about predators and I understand the statistics about family members vs strangers (just as I understand the statistics on the odds of women being assaulted by men vs. trans women). I have both boys and a girl and they were all pretty innocent at 7.

And by the way, being as protective of young boys as we are of our girls, does not lead to entitled, predatory, helpless adult men.

borisescomb · 26/01/2023 11:12

@Lovelysausagedogscrumpy why on earth are you comparing trans people to children and the disabled? Two completely different issues.