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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

3 year old member of Mensa.

268 replies

Toddlerteaplease · 23/01/2023 17:38

Article in todays Times, (don't know how to link)
AIBU to think this is ridiculous, let him be a toddler, nurture his interests of course. But this is OTT, and asking for trouble. Apparently he wants to go to university and be a doctor. Confused

OP posts:
Jellycats4life · 24/01/2023 12:55

AreOttersJustWetCats · 24/01/2023 11:44

No indication?

The fact that his parents have chosen to publicise this in the national media is a very strong indicator indeed that they are pushy parents who are highly invested in their child being special. I'd be surprised if he was being encouraged to live a normal toddler life.

Yes, I find going to the media a bit troubling, as well as posing the poor kid like a “little professor” with silly glasses, desk and laptop.

Hopefully they are just a little naive. If they are in fact deeply invested in their “profoundly gifted “ kid, and this is the beginning of a huge ego trip for them, the likelihood of this boy having any neurodivergence recognised in the future (and getting support for the things he might find very difficult) is unfortunately quite low.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 24/01/2023 13:06

AuxArmesCitoyens · 24/01/2023 12:38

There are loads of stories like this in the media. Most of them drop out of sight within a matter of days and are never thought of again. It's not an automatic mathway to Ruth Lawrence levels of exposure.

They might drop out of the media, but do you think those kids get an easy ride through school, once their peers are old enough to see the articles that were written about them? Do you think they find it easy to make friends?

Academic success is great, but emotional development and building relationships is just as important (probably more important) for young children.

Ncgirlseriously · 24/01/2023 13:10

@SweetSakura

I don’t think anybody is saying that this boy is definitely autistic. I’m saying that suggesting he might be is not an insult.

SweetSakura · 24/01/2023 13:12

Oh I agree with that @Ncgirlseriously it's distasteful seeing people suggest that it is somehow the "downside" of a high IQ. But I also get frustrated by suggestions that imply he definitely is. It's perfectly possible to have a high IQ and not be autistic.

Legrandetraitor · 24/01/2023 13:15

Ncgirlseriously · 24/01/2023 13:10

@SweetSakura

I don’t think anybody is saying that this boy is definitely autistic. I’m saying that suggesting he might be is not an insult.

There is a poster on the previous page saying they would be “very worried” and think he is autistic. Very negative and reads as bizarrely gleeful at the thought

Cockerdileteeth · 24/01/2023 13:26

It seems at best naive to have gone to the press with this, and I wouldn't have. Being proud of your child isn't a crime and it's definitely not synonymous with being "pushy" or hot housing, but it's hard to see how press attention is in the boy's best interests.

People's knee jerk instinct to cut down tall poppies is one reason for that, and it's evident on this thread.

Yes, early reading or counting can simply be rote memorisation and recitation. Or there can be deep understanding, and you can tell the difference if you look and listen properly. Similarly, early reading/counting can be the result of heavy parental coaching. Or they can be the result of a very bright cookie grabbing hold of the standard resources that we're all encouraged to expose our toddlers and preschoolers to (CBeebies, number play toys, some books, maybe a phonics chart at nursery, some educational app thingummy which you throw tothem in desperation so you can get on with stuff for a few minutes) which the child then runs with by themselves at 110mph. Just like most children soak up spoken language and learn to speak without that much conscious effort from the parents. It's not necessarily coaching.

If he is autistic, or ND in some other way, then that is in addition to not instead of his high IQ and he will be twice exceptional/DME. The parents seem alive to the possibility.

For those saying - just let them be toddlers- it's not that simple. All children develop on their own schedule, they're not robots. But it goes with the territory for exceptionally bright kids to be a LOT more out of sync/out of step with peer averages, than is usual. They can seem as though they're many ages at once. Those "precocious" seeming skills totally don't preclude other sorts of fun like jumping in puddles, and playing let's pretend tea parties with play doh biscuits, and running round the woods being a dinosaur, etc etc. But equally, you and the child can do all those things until the cows come, and it won't stop the out-of-syncness and the precocious skills and interests. You have to follow the child and let them be themselves.

For those saying - but he's not that different, he's 1 in every 100 or 200 - that really is enough to make things challenging in a school system that's designed around the average. I looked it up and 70% of us are within 1 standard deviation of the average IQ, 95% of us are within 2 SDs. This child is on the cusp of 3 SDs from the average. At the other end of the bell curve, we see this degree of difference as mild to moderate general learning difficulty and provide services and support. If you're 1 in 200 you won't have another child like you in an average primary school year, certainly not in a classroom. The odds of finding friends at school who share interests and personalities that click AND a similar desire for complexity, is going to be a lot more stacked against him. The pace of the curriculum will be difficult and frustrating, just as much as if he was struggling to keep up but without much support because it's hard to justify resources for children who are already exceeding age norms. So it's different enough, and he and his parents will need support.

Thepeopleversuswork · 24/01/2023 13:27

Wookiebowl · 24/01/2023 11:52

Also plenty of parents are approached by the media for various things, I'm sure if it wasn't for achieving something fairly unique people wouldn't be as critical of the parents. But hey, not bitter are you ;) there's no indication that they pushed him through this and then approached the media selling their story.

Sorry but the media takes the position that putting elements of your personal life up into the public domain makes you public property.

This is a critical question which always comes up in the ethics of whether its right to "invade" celebrities' private space. One of the principles is that if you have previously put yourself in the public domain you don't have a right to argue after the fact that you have a right to privacy. It's a specious and unfair argument but this is how it's treated.

If a teenage ice-skater or footballer or singer who has a reasonable level of self-awareness and good media advisers decides to do this it's one thing.

A three year old child however cannot consent to this and has no idea what he is signing up to (however clever he is). If when he's 15 or 16, God forbid, he has a mental health episode or has problems with drugs or whatever, this could be dragged up and used as an excuse to peg a nasty story on him. It will follow him around for decades.

There's a long history of "gifted" children who the media has followed and in many cases they have gone on to have quite troubled lives. They live with the burden of not being able to do anything in the public eye because the media will hark back to who they were as tiny children and compare and contrast them. They may not have troubled lives but they will still be massively typecast and the image will follow them everywhere.

It may be nasty but this is the world that we live in. And it absolutely beggars belief that the parents could fail to have been aware of this. I have total contempt for anyone who does this to a child that young in full knowledge of what the risks and the burden are. It's borderline abusive in my view.

Legrandetraitor · 24/01/2023 13:31

Most people who move in intelligent circles know full well that mensa membership isn't something to get excited about

one of the wankiest and silliest things I’ve ever read on here and that’s saying something!

Wookiebowl · 24/01/2023 13:35

Legrandetraitor · 24/01/2023 13:31

Most people who move in intelligent circles know full well that mensa membership isn't something to get excited about

one of the wankiest and silliest things I’ve ever read on here and that’s saying something!

Haha isn't it just, a lot of ridiculous jealous and bitter people on here.

SweetSakura · 24/01/2023 13:36

Is it? I know a lot of highly intelligent people (as a result of my profession) and I don't know anyone who feels the need for mensa membership to validate their intelligence.

BambinBoo · 24/01/2023 13:37

Really interesting thread. I think Means is old fashioned but I agree that if you have a highly intelligent child you need to look at their needs holistically.

What are people's view on autism and high intelligence? Is there an argument that being extremely / highly / very above average intelligent is a form of euro diversity in all cases? Is it always linked to autism or other forms of ND? Are any highly intelligent kids / people NT?

BambinBoo · 24/01/2023 13:37

*Mensa not Means

goshdoyoumeantobsorude · 24/01/2023 13:39

What a lovely little boy, a normal 4 year old but obviously bright with a great ability to learn. Good luck to him and his parents.

Thereisnolight · 24/01/2023 13:49

SweetSakura · 24/01/2023 13:36

Is it? I know a lot of highly intelligent people (as a result of my profession) and I don't know anyone who feels the need for mensa membership to validate their intelligence.

Similar here - however I feel that where children have had every opportunity to shine there can be a snobbery around not needing to prove your intelligence with a Mensa card as you can just pop in to your job as a neurosurgeon or astrophysicist or run your multi-million pound business. (I did have a bit of a sneer upthread about a man I knew who kept “accidentally” dropping his Mensa card from his wallet in front of younger women and his colleagues thought he was a bit of a twat).
But for children who haven’t had or won’t have such career and education opportunities…I think organisations like Mensa can help to validate people who work at grassroots level - or don’t work at all - yet know that they are extremely bright (albeit sometimes in a very focused or impractical way).

Legrandetraitor · 24/01/2023 13:50

SweetSakura · 24/01/2023 13:36

Is it? I know a lot of highly intelligent people (as a result of my profession) and I don't know anyone who feels the need for mensa membership to validate their intelligence.

I think the phrase “moves in intelligent circles” is what did it for me.

I don’t think it’s about classic validation (perhaps it is for some): I think it’s for things like 1) access to support - if you have a child who is so intelligent that it’s overwhelming then it is necessary to access some sort of support, yes. For you and for your child. And 2) it is, in my opinion, a special need. Especially if the child isn’t twice exceptional (doesn’t have an additional need eg autism) - what support is in place for a 5 year old who could, and wants to, do A level maths? Should they just sit and do extension work in classic working on counting to 100? How is that fair?

anomaly23 · 24/01/2023 13:52

I'm surprised they tested him because they wouldn't test ds until he was 10.

Phos · 24/01/2023 13:57

anomaly23 · 24/01/2023 13:52

I'm surprised they tested him because they wouldn't test ds until he was 10.

Mensa won't have tested him. For a kid under 10 to be admitted they need to get a psychologists report and an IQ (usually the Stanford-Binet) test taken independently. Takes quite a bit of effort. Which is rather at odds with how naive and "Oh I had NO idea!" the mum seems to be.

Cockerdileteeth · 24/01/2023 14:10

BambinBoo · 24/01/2023 13:37

Really interesting thread. I think Means is old fashioned but I agree that if you have a highly intelligent child you need to look at their needs holistically.

What are people's view on autism and high intelligence? Is there an argument that being extremely / highly / very above average intelligent is a form of euro diversity in all cases? Is it always linked to autism or other forms of ND? Are any highly intelligent kids / people NT?

My IQ is in the profoundly gifted range - not that anyone would know to look at me :-) and thankfully my parents never blabbed it to the press, so Google wouldn't tell you. Unlike the poor kid who's the subject of this thread and has his private information out there now for all time...

AFAIK I'm not ND. Back in the day, school wasn't always super fun, socially, but that all evened out and resolved as an adult. Whereas autism and other NDs are always going to remain integral to who you are. (If you "just" have a high IQ, you of course still have that high IQ as an adult, but by definition you grow past the asynchronous development that can be challenging during childhood.)

Is high IQ a neurodiversity in its own right? Personally I don't think so, not in the technical/medical sense by which we currently define neurodiversities, at least in part, by reference to areas of difficulty in daily life. Which I don't have. If we were to move towards defining ND in a wider sense, as having a brain which works in ways that are a little bit different...then quite possibly.

AuxArmesCitoyens · 24/01/2023 14:16

Are any highly intelligent kids / people NT

yes of course, loads 🙄

There's a long history of "gifted" children who the media has followed and in many cases they have gone on to have quite troubled lives

There's also a long history of the BBC printing articles about kids joining MENSA that are a complete flash in the pan. Have a quick search on the BBC website, there are pages and pages of these stories.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 24/01/2023 14:21

AuxArmesCitoyens · 24/01/2023 14:16

Are any highly intelligent kids / people NT

yes of course, loads 🙄

There's a long history of "gifted" children who the media has followed and in many cases they have gone on to have quite troubled lives

There's also a long history of the BBC printing articles about kids joining MENSA that are a complete flash in the pan. Have a quick search on the BBC website, there are pages and pages of these stories.

Agree with this. It's perfectly possible to have a high IQ and being NT.

But re: the media - just because the public don't see them featured again doesn't mean that being in the spotlight won't have negatively affected that child. Have a think about what their peers are likely to say when they get old enough to find the old stories. It's not going to make for an easy ride at school in future.

Also, the child will inevitably grow up knowing that the media made a big fuss of them. They are likely to feel a heavy weight of expectation, and possibly feel a failure if they don't end up being high achieving.

I was a 'gifted' child and thankfully my parent did not go down this route. It was awkward enough doing different work to the rest of the class, being singled out in the media as being different would have been awful.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 24/01/2023 14:26

And I agree with those PP upthread that said Mensa membership is definitely not seen as aspirational in many circles.

If you work in a job that requires high intelligence, telling your colleagues that you are in Mensa is more likely to result in raised eyebrows than admiration. They will be wondering what you're trying to prove and why you need the validation.

Harsh, but true.

Bananaparma · 24/01/2023 14:43

There's a lot of drama on this thread. If a child is going to be bullied it is very unlikely to be solely based on an article that was published when they were 3. Its also unlikely a child will feel a world of expectation from one article. I think it's nice to read about a child achieving something not many do, humorous to see the well its not that impressive or must be due to something else from the parents upset their little darlings didn't get to join mensa.

Bananaparma · 24/01/2023 14:44

AreOttersJustWetCats · 24/01/2023 14:26

And I agree with those PP upthread that said Mensa membership is definitely not seen as aspirational in many circles.

If you work in a job that requires high intelligence, telling your colleagues that you are in Mensa is more likely to result in raised eyebrows than admiration. They will be wondering what you're trying to prove and why you need the validation.

Harsh, but true.

He is 3 for fuck sake. I doubt many people join because they believe it will lead them to the land of milk and honey, probably just more out of intrigue or interest. Very odd how dedicated some seem to bringing a 3 year old, a literal pre schooler down a peg or 2. Sad.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 24/01/2023 14:55

Nobody is judging the 3 year old - it wasn't his choice to sit the tests or publicise himself in the media. I certainly am not judging him, I wish him all the best.

His publicity seeking parents are a different matter.

And maybe one article might not harm this particular child. But would you take the chance? There is nothing about being in the news that is in his best interests, there are only potential downsides. Downsides that he is too young to understand or consent to.

Thepeopleversuswork · 24/01/2023 14:57

Bananaparma · 24/01/2023 14:43

There's a lot of drama on this thread. If a child is going to be bullied it is very unlikely to be solely based on an article that was published when they were 3. Its also unlikely a child will feel a world of expectation from one article. I think it's nice to read about a child achieving something not many do, humorous to see the well its not that impressive or must be due to something else from the parents upset their little darlings didn't get to join mensa.

So the only reason people ever have an opposing point of view or a critical argument against something is because they are "jealous" or "bitter".

OK then....

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