Tories aren’t even bothering to hide their NHS privatisation plan anymore

[Letshaveablackcelebration2022]

I think it was possible Noam Chomsky who said that the route to all privatisation of services was that first they run it totally into the ground and then they offer up a private model as a solution . It’s actually tedious in its predictability. Pillaging everything good from the country- Royal Mail, water, utilities, rail network, even housing via private landlords - everything to make profit.

And of course as predicted, the NHS was the final prize.

The only sane thing Javid pointed out is that the waiting system which the NHS uses does not work. The use of GP and A&E where there is no real wait is the issue. There is no effective filtering of need.

I’d go with people discussing the issue here in U.K. rather than deflect for a start.

As a country we could do a lot more to make exercise accessible and enjoyable, proper provision for cyclists walkers runners etc
I like walking but find even crossing the road is scary these days as I can't see over the top of all the massive cars that are parked up everywhere 😣
As for cycling now too scary on the roads, off road there are dogs running around everywhere that make it impossible😣
The UK seems to be set up to prioritise the needs of dogs and cars 😣

I’m not opposed to this but it’s down to people’s choices too. People like to drive and have dogs so you can offer bicycle schemes - as per every job I’ve applied for and congestion charge is also good but I’d like it if people took more care over health.

Culturally this seems to be a difference that I have observed. Is it reliance on the state or free at point of delivery health making it easier to ignore

Not sure but so often I hear it’s not my doing, but each decision is really up to us.

This labour shortage is a new thing which reverses the power structure between workers and bosses, we have increasingly fewer young healthy people to look after increasingly more older sick people.

yes this is new territory

First they need to stop the procurement contracts, insisting on paying 3 times + for things because they are bought from NHS contract suppliers, that could save millions, then reduce layers of bureaucracy, both could be done without affecting patients, then sort social care to increase available beds.

@Cuppasoupmonster

"We can’t go back in time, nor can we make ourselves a richer country. It’s all very well comparing to Germany and Switzerland which have higher wealth than we do."

Switzerland is an outlier - Germany and Austria (my examples) do not have higher wealth than the UK. Average wealth per capita in the UK is €102,000 compared with €69,000 in Germany and €68,000 in Austria. The issue is that in the UK wealth is extremely unevenly distributed, and those with wealth are not keen on sharing it with anyone else, even when to do so would benefit society and the country as a whole.

"Yes, we can afford not to have a universal healthcare system. Very few countries have the level of free healthcare we do and that is why it is flagging - we can no longer afford to pay for the increasing care everyone needs."

The UK has nowhere near the level of "free" healthcare that other, similar countries enjoy. Nowhere else in Europe are people dying in hospital car parks after waiting hours for an ambulance to arrive. Nowhere else has 12% of the population waiting months for a hospital appointment. In many EU countries, GPs can be seen just by walking in, and waiting lists for treatment are all but unknown.

There is of course no such thing as "free" healthcare - it has to be paid for one way or another. The current UK system is inefficient and has become a political battle ground. Other countries have various forms of compulsory National Health Insurance, but this is usually both ringfenced for healthcare and kept out of the hands of meddling politicians.

"It’s really straightforward actually."

It is nowhere near straightforward. While the UK cannot turn back time, it can start by removing the sort of politicians such as Hunt whose incompetence and poor decisions are blighting the current healthcare service. It can start admitting that the NHS has been underfunded and under-resourced for decades and that the damage caused by the Conservatives, LibDems and Labour will take a decade or more to rectify. It can start to understand that healthcare, social care and elderly care are all part of the same service to citizens and that having a fragmented approach to these three areas invariably causes problems.

"What else can be done?"

The UK can stop listening to the failed "Free Market" approach advocated by the Conservatives and based on the profit-driven American model. Not everything in this world can be "for profit" and healthcare is one of the areas that really can only be successfully delivered to everyone on a universal basis. Nobody can know what disease or accident they might suffer tomorrow, the effects of which can be catastrophic if there is no safety net in place. This should be a basic feature of a wealthy, advanced modern country - as it is in many places, but sadly not in the UK.

You're very naive if you don't realise that this is a cross party intention and has been a long time in the works.

Only the private sector will cut out the deadwood. They'll be doing the state sectors dirty work for them.

What if it's better but you can't afford to access it? Or no one will agree to insure one of your kids because they've been diagnosed with a chronic condition?

Cileymyrus Blair brought in Choose & Book for routine operations to buy up unused private theatre slots to get waiting lists down, it meant that under Labour nobody waited more than 18 weeks for an operation, Choose & Book is still available so what has gone wrong under the Tories?

Cileymyrus Blair brought in Choose & Book for routine operations to buy up unused private theatre slots to get waiting lists down, it meant that under Labour nobody waited more than 18 weeks for an operation, Choose & Book is still available so what has gone wrong under the Tories?

Like Ireland if you charge to see a GP, attend A&E watch the abusers of the system melt away.

My GP said a decade ago she sees some patients weekly or more having a moan about aches and pains. She said it would save the NHS money if they shipped them off to benidorm etc in the winter to a kinder climate which would alleviate the aches of old age.

They're still using it here in Wales, private sector are doing a lot of operations for our health board.

@Untitledsquatboulder people diagnosed with a chronic illness or a disability cannot be rejected or charged more for insurance by the mutual health model that is common in most European countries, or Israel, or Australia. It is universal. Yes, there's an age related element, but that should encourage people to look after their health better as they age and try to maintain it.

They're still using it here in Wales, private sector are doing a lot of operations for our health board.

See.... privatisation is alive and kicking in the NHS - which is a good thing.

Physiotherapy, chiropractor, all available privately as and when you need them. NHS you wait months to get an appointment. I know folks with plenty of money who just won't pay on principle so suffer and deteriorate in the meantime. They won't pay for a yoga lesson. They won't follow yoga on you tube. Just expect the blue fairy to wave the NHS magic wand

There are much better healthcare systems that the NHS and, no, I’m not talking about the US. The NHS model doesn’t work any more so we need a system that does but it’s people like you OP that are stopping reform. I don’t want to hear, Tory, Tory, Tory. Take the politics out of the NHS.

One of the great mistakes the well-intentioned Gordon Brown did was to go for PFI for hospitals and schools in the 90s. With a civil service that has never been able to write contracts. So buildings and wards were built which were sometimes ridiculous and the hospitals/NHS were left paying huge sums to private finance companies and having to close some of the wards because they couldn't afford to run or staff them. Some hospital trusts (Portsmouth) even set up fundraising charities to try to keep them open and help pay the PFI contracts.

I am not averse to paying to be seen by medics. In France you pay up front and claim back on your insurance. In most areas it works well and the service is fast and swifter - but they are also suffering in rural areas with fewer local doctors and midwives.

As I understand it the pay per visit proposal suggested is means tested. That's a can of worms in itself. Labour has often objected to this as shaming those who would get a free pass. And as we've seen with childcare allowances, it can backfire where it's judged on a joint salary (2 x 25000£) versus an individual (£50000).

The other problem is training and employment. It costs a lot to train both for the government, teaching hospitals and the person being trained. But with junior doctors on £14 per hour it's not a great incentive - and many hospitals and GP practices cannot afford to employ any more new doctors or nurses so there will be a bottleneck for those who've gone through all that training.

My GP said a decade ago she sees some patients weekly or more having a moan about aches and pains.

Surely these people would still get it free as people who have time to go weekly are unlikely to be working.

There are many many reasons why nhs care runs overtime/late compared to private care but one big one is that in the uk most private care doesn’t deal with unscheduled emergency’s

take obstetric ultrasound for example:

your private scan clinic runs to time because of a problem is found at the scan the patient is told to go to the local nhs provider asap and then they get on with the next scan on time

if a problem is found at a routine nhs scan it is dealt with at that point causing delays for those waiting

and the nhs the also has to deal with the private scan patients needing to be slotted in as emergencies

or say a routine heart operation that goes wrong and emergency corrective surgery and an itu bed is needed

if it’s an nhs patient in an nhs hospital then the emergency is dealt with taking up another theatre slot and an itu bed, meaning that a routine operation for someone else is likely cancelled and an nhs patient misses out

if it’s a private patient they will need an ambulance transfer to the nhs hospital, an emergency operation slot and an itu bed and so as before a routine op for someone’s else is cancelled and an nhs patient misses out, the private hospital meanwhile is getting on with its next scheduled op all to time so the private patients aren’t inconvenienced

the private healthcare system can run to time because it dosent fix the problems it discovers or creates. This is different to a fully private system like in the US where as there is no nhs to fall back on private care has to deal with its own issues - you will thefore find that there are long waits in the USA as well for care

I'll repeat my point to you about not having said that it won't still be free at the point of service.

And those imaginary children are unlikely to have a chronic condition.

Justasking111 they are still using it in England but something has gone wrong because waiting lists are horrendous, they should open it up to more specialities.

And anyone who quotes the US as an example of privatisation clearly doesn't actually understand what privatisation means.

"One of the great mistakes the well-intentioned Gordon Brown did was to go for PFI for hospitals and schools in the 90s."

Agreed, but for the sake of political balance, I'll point out that Brown and Blair made the mistake of continuing a PFI policy that was started by John Major.

There will be even more problems and arguments over how the assets are to be managed as these PFI contracts near their end in the near future.