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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

1000 replies

BarmyBrunhilde · 20/01/2023 22:18

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

OP posts:
ditalini · 20/01/2023 23:52

Eeiliethya · 20/01/2023 23:49

Every workplace asks to see a copy of your passport for right to work in the UK. IF passport shows a different gender then a GRC produced and discrepancy created. On the payroll as female.

Or you apply for a new passport. They accept GRC to change sex on passport.

Every job required evidence of right to work in the UK and this is either a birth certificate or passport.

You don't need a GRC to change the name and sex on your passport.

WalkthisWayUK · 20/01/2023 23:53

BarmyBrunhilde · 20/01/2023 23:50

Passport can be changed independently of GRC already, the two are not related gic.nhs.uk/info-support/changing-your-passport/

Want to answer my post on why death certificates need to be accurate and how GRC affects that?

You how perhaps prostate cancer rates are now occurring in women because the data is messed up? It’s really important stuff that affects all of us. Data.

BarmyBrunhilde · 20/01/2023 23:53

ditalini · 20/01/2023 23:50

Interestingly, before the narrative became "marriage and death certificates only!" Trans advocates were very clear that a GRC holder must be treated as a woman in single sex spaces.

It's gone a bit quiet just now (even after a Scottish court case which seemed to confirm their view), but I suspect that may change if GRR eventually passes.

There is case law trans people can use spaces of their transitioned gender in many circumstances, so not quite sure what you mean here? www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

OP posts:
SantaCarlaCalifornia · 20/01/2023 23:53

No official documents should be able to be falsified.

lifeturnsonadime · 20/01/2023 23:53

ditalini · 20/01/2023 23:52

You don't need a GRC to change the name and sex on your passport.

Wow so you can falsify sex on a passport with no evidence or proof?

Wowsers!

NewBootsAndRanty · 20/01/2023 23:54

Being "recorded correctly at death" will eventually see increased need in women's health and services to eliminate prostate cancer

WalkthisWayUK · 20/01/2023 23:54

Death certificates.

ACCURATE DATA.

Are you going to actually reply to an argument that you put forward that is so badly full of holes? 😂

Or do I have to keep posting this until you do…

NewBootsAndRanty · 20/01/2023 23:54

Oops x posted with @WalkthisWayUK

howmanybicycles · 20/01/2023 23:54

OP females earn 85p per pound that men earn. How do you propose to make this situation better if 'woman' mean 'anyone who wants to call themselves a woman'?

How will we track progress towards reducing increaseð risk of medicL procedures for females.if there is no word to describe females?

You can ignore these questions just like you've ignored ofheron this thread but to be clear, that just makes it look like you are avoiding explaining your thoughts. Which makes your position look weak and unsubstantiated. I will take you avoidance of this question as confirmation of that.

ditalini · 20/01/2023 23:55

lifeturnsonadime · 20/01/2023 23:53

Wow so you can falsify sex on a passport with no evidence or proof?

Wowsers!

Indeed. And yet so much time (six years!), money, effort for legislation which (allegedly) will make so little difference to trans people in Scotland.

WalkthisWayUK · 20/01/2023 23:57

NewBootsAndRanty · 20/01/2023 23:54

Oops x posted with @WalkthisWayUK

I’m glad you posted. On the issue of death certificates alone this is a crucial point and one in which the OP has completely dodged!

OP have no answer for death certificates.

Apparnetly they completley bought into that a death certificate is something which should record the feelings and wishes of someone, rather than accurate facts. This is such a dodgy road we are going down…

lifeturnsonadime · 20/01/2023 23:57

ditalini · 20/01/2023 23:55

Indeed. And yet so much time (six years!), money, effort for legislation which (allegedly) will make so little difference to trans people in Scotland.

So just to follow this through.

How does a person falsify a passport then.

Do they just say "Yes I have a gender identity" then the passport office puts the opposite sex?

what if the person is one of the non binaries? Is there a sexless option on passports?

PearPickingPorky · 20/01/2023 23:58

BarmyBrunhilde · 20/01/2023 23:49

Thats like saying why have gay marriage when we have civil partnership! If trans people experience dysphoria, surely they should be able to use gender appropriate vows and have their transitioned gender on their death certificate? The cost is surely minimal overall.

What if they don't have gender dysphoria; should they still be able to change the sex on their birth certificate (and then all other ID)?

ditalini · 21/01/2023 00:00

lifeturnsonadime · 20/01/2023 23:57

So just to follow this through.

How does a person falsify a passport then.

Do they just say "Yes I have a gender identity" then the passport office puts the opposite sex?

what if the person is one of the non binaries? Is there a sexless option on passports?

Doctor's note.

www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender

PearPickingPorky · 21/01/2023 00:00

"Legislation cannot be both of overwhelming importance to one group, and of no impact or of no relevance to the rest of society."

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:00

(There is case law trans people can use spaces of their transitioned gender in many circumstances, so not quite sure what you mean here?

What's a transitioned gender. can I get a fake passport if I want have one?

Asking for a friend?

BarmyBrunhilde · 21/01/2023 00:01

howmanybicycles · 20/01/2023 23:54

OP females earn 85p per pound that men earn. How do you propose to make this situation better if 'woman' mean 'anyone who wants to call themselves a woman'?

How will we track progress towards reducing increaseð risk of medicL procedures for females.if there is no word to describe females?

You can ignore these questions just like you've ignored ofheron this thread but to be clear, that just makes it look like you are avoiding explaining your thoughts. Which makes your position look weak and unsubstantiated. I will take you avoidance of this question as confirmation of that.

1 in 3 employers have said the won't employ a trans worker, so I hardly think there are going to a spate of high earners distorting statistics. Also they make 0.5% of the population according the census. www.crosslandsolicitors.com/site/hr-hub/transgender-discrimination-in-UK-workplaces

OP posts:
Perfectpeace · 21/01/2023 00:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

howmanybicycles · 21/01/2023 00:01

WalkthisWayUK · 20/01/2023 23:57

I’m glad you posted. On the issue of death certificates alone this is a crucial point and one in which the OP has completely dodged!

OP have no answer for death certificates.

Apparnetly they completley bought into that a death certificate is something which should record the feelings and wishes of someone, rather than accurate facts. This is such a dodgy road we are going down…

Yep. Especially when women (actual women) are disadvantaged in health care. Allowing even more men to be falsely recorded as women obscures that fact. Only a word class dick would support that.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 21/01/2023 00:01

crackofdoom · 20/01/2023 22:39

YANBU OP, and I find it very odd, too. As the above replies illustrate, there is a level of emotion and vitriol around the subject disproportionate to the level it affects the lives of most women. I suspect the issue has been deliberately inflamed by those acting in bad faith on both sides.

Things I, and the other women I know in real life, worry about:
Uneven distribution of household duties and the caring burden
Male-on-female domestic abuse (I know of many cases, all of the perpetrators cis men)
Universal credit and its impact on lone parents (disproportionately mothers)
The high cost/ unavailability of childcare
Entrenched sexist attitudes in, for example, schools.
Increasing misogyny on social media being adopted by teens and younger men
The incredibly low rape conviction rate.

Reading this list back, I could easily believe that the controversy could have been deliberately stoked by cis men in order to deflect attention from the far, far, FAR greater threat they pose to the wellbeing of women.

Uneven distribution of household duties and the caring burden
Male-on-female domestic abuse (I know of many cases, all of the perpetrators cis men)
Universal credit and its impact on lone parents (disproportionately mothers)
Entrenched sexist attitudes in, for example, schools.
Increasing misogyny on social media being adopted by teens and younger men
The incredibly low rape conviction rate.

How do you know any of these are happening? How do you know these are systemic social patterns that advantage men and disadvantage women and not just isolated experiences of unlucky people?

Because the difference in male and female outcomes show up in statistics. Because women talk and realise it's not just a thing that happened to happen to one unlucky person who met the wrong other person, it's happening to her, and her, and her, and what those people have in common is their sex. Because right now we do know who are male and who are female.

How did women gain legislation that said "no, you can't not employ someone, or not promote her, because you believe women can't work as effectively as men"? How did women gain the social protections that say "no, men can't go in there because women may be undressing?" How did women gain the right to insist the men who father children support them (meagre though that may be in practice)? How did women gain maternity leave, andchild support? How did women overturn the right of their husbands to rape them? How did women gain the courage to stand up, at work, in pubs, in their communities and say "this is not fair and if you are a reasonable human you will stop doing it and stop looking away when others do it?"

Because women could talk together, create social and political spaces where they were not talked over by men, and found their voices, and their anger, and they created movements and they refined their arguments and they pooled their resources and they build what they needed.

Your ability to identify and fight for the injustices you care about today exists exactly because we do still know, in reality, who a woman is and we have the structures and tools the women who came before us built.

But our identity, our right to name ourselves, and our needs, and our experiences, as different to men, and to get together without male voices and recognise our own shared experience and create the resources we need, and to be counted for who we are and to have our reality reflected in research and statistics, is being changed. Eroded.

So my fear is not about what more GRCs, or unpapered male women, or males in women's spaces means today, or next week. It's what it means in a year, or 5 years, or ten years, when women (as we know them today) still suffer the challenges we always did, or worse, but have lost the tools, analysis and voice to name it and fight it. When our non violent, non sexual patterns of offending are invisible within a group that includes offenses of our male sisters. When our silent fear and fury at being catcalled and groped is offset by male people whose womanhood is centred in submission. When maternity rights are not obviously a women's issue because not all mothers are women and not all women have a female reproductive system.

BarmyBrunhilde · 21/01/2023 00:02

PearPickingPorky · 21/01/2023 00:00

"Legislation cannot be both of overwhelming importance to one group, and of no impact or of no relevance to the rest of society."

That's just not true, what about gay marriage?

OP posts:
SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:03

BarmyBrunhilde · 20/01/2023 22:29

My children are at school, they are aware trans people exist, there is one trans boy at the school, we've probably had 2 conversations about it in total? The idea it's some major topic being talked about non-stop just doesn't add up to me.

Girls have been raped at school by trans identified boys in the bathroom eg in the USA. Allowing people to change their sex in law (of course they can’t in reality,it’s a legal fiction) removes womens rights to single sex spaces and a whole host of other things (accurate equality monitoring, a proper comparator in a sex discrimination case and so on).

it’s an extremely important feminist issue- the most important one. If we cannot accurately define what women are we are lost. Men are not women.

FontSnob · 21/01/2023 00:03

AnonWeeMouse · 20/01/2023 22:32

One of your kids male teachers comes out as trans, but hasn't had grs.
When they go for away trips, they can share a room with your teen daughters. They can change with them and shower with them.
The 5 boys in school have also come out as trans and can now take places on your daughter's sports teams, change with them, shower with them, share a dorm with them.

Of those 6, 1 is nefarious... Which would you rather it be? The grown adult with full unfettered access to your diaghters, or 1 of the 5 boys?

In what world do you live where any teacher can shower or share a room with any student???

howmanybicycles · 21/01/2023 00:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OP is an unapologetic MRA who is ignoring inconvenient question. This is now a conversation. This is arrogant and hugely naive preaching.

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:04

1 in 3 employers have said the won't employ a trans worker, so I hardly think there are going to a spate of high earners distorting statistics. Also they make 0.5% of the population according the census. www.crosslandsolicitors.com/site/hr-hub/transgender-discrimination-in-UK-workplaces

Dreadful, good job the Equality Act 2010 already protects them.

Tell me why we should falsify passports?

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