To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it.

Nobody should be dehumanising or insulting anyone. I'm not sure why you're still going on and on about something I have neither done nor agreed with.

It isnt about who is the most intelligent who can spout the most articles

It's about who knows what they're talking about. Rhino does - we can see she is well informed, she can tell us where her information comes from so we can check for ourselves how reliable it is and if she's reported it correctly and guess what biasses it might have and pick up on mistakes. And she puts together a clear solid argument.

and nobody is here to be judged.

We aren't, but what we say is here to be judged. True, false, clear, confused, well informed, well evidenced, well argued... or just clinging to ideas we don't want to give up.

lets not pretend that side of the argument are squeaky clean.

None of us are ever squeaky clean so we all have to check that our own side's arguments make sense as well as arguing against the other side.

But then yesterday I had ...

I am very sorry. I hate name calling and I'm glad MNHQ deleted the posts. It's hard not to get sucked in.

Yeah, I do pay heed to rhino's.

And thanks, I appreciated your post.

I think I'm as human as anyone else and defensive as fuck and back myself into a corner.

https://kpssinfo.org/women-in-prison-speak-outt^^/^

Annabelle’s testimony, a few down on the list.

A correction about the male prisoner’s crime - if the two males in the prison, one was in for serious domestic violence the other for murder. She doesn’t say which one she was locked in the holding cell with - either option sounds terrifying.

Maybe Dame Helena Kennedy or Nicola Sturgeon should be invited to try it out as they think it is fine for Annabelle.

She also had a coil fitted as she was terrified of getting raped and made pregnant while in prison.

Some of the women’s testimonies on here are heartbreaking.

Thank you. This is vile and chilling.

You can't pretend that a man wafting through life is sometimes a man to some people and sometimes a woman to others. That's not how reality works.

Yes I think this is a good point. You can't change biological sex, therefore a man is always going to be a man.

I see.

Great. Then you agree that the dehumanising of anyone through use of language such as 'gender criticals', 'the gender criticals', 'the GCs', and 'the transes' should be called out. And you will do it to any one you see doing it? Like many of us do.

And you won't provide any examples of the 'way trans people' are treated in a similar fashion here on MN, but that readers should be assured that it happens. Even though transphobic posts are deleted (and therefore still a problem, as it must be for every single site on the internet that allows people to post their comments...)

And you agree that usage of the terms 'echo chamber' is done simply to shame posters and shut down debate.

Great.

Your post was just reeling out the 'both sides' argument and you wanted to admonish me with 'Behave' for your own reasons. Ok. got it.

In other words you want me to take your side and criticise people on the gender criticals argument (which once youd pointed it out to me I would have done) but are continuing to mock and take the piss out of the issue I raised.

Bollocks to that. You're on your own.

You don't have to be fully supportive of trans issues to get shouted down on Mumsnet. If anyone says anything even slightly supportive of trans gender people at least 20 posters will pile on, dissect everything they said, accuse them of thinking things they haven’t said. You are expected to answer each of their posts individually with a multitude of links and supportive evidence which can be further dissected. The poster is often also accused of being a man or trans rights activist or not posting in good faith. Most people have learned not to bother.

From Annabelle, the Scottish prisoner mentioned:

Women are tiptoeing on a never ending bed of eggshells every time a man is placed in their prison. The crippling fear that you might accidentally call this man “he/him” is palpable. The punishments for “misgendering” these men vary. A woman can be charged, a woman can be written up which affects too many things to mention. She can have privileges withdrawn. She can be locked in her cell for longer than the usual 23 hours. She can have visitation removed and she can also be transferred to a different prison. Literally evicted for using the wrong pronoun (well the correct pronoun).

This is unequivocally morally wrong.

Who identifies as a woman. You cant just pretend trans people dont exist.
Stories of nutters on buses doesnt change that.

You can't even explain what "identifies as a woman" means.

It's meaningless.

But talk of lies and delusion, while popular in here, does not progress the wider issue

If our starting point is not truth and accuracy then how can we progress the issue in a meaningful and workable way?

A birth certificate which records someone born male as female is a lie.

A belief that human beings can change sex is potentially delusional.

I don't say either of these things to be antagonistic or to cause anyone pain and if you think that's the case then why aren't you questioning why the truth is unsayable?

A man is not and cannot become a woman because human beings can't change sex.

This is a statement of fact which, until pretty recently, was uncontroversial. Do you think its controversial now? Why? Do you think society can work if we all refrain from stating facts because those facts are unpalatable to some people?

If its meaningless, it wont be a problem then.

Nobody is pretending trans people don't exist FFS. We just think that laws should not be based on something that is fundamentally untrue. Humans cannot change sex. Men cannot become women.

Who identifies as a woman. You cant just pretend trans people dont exist.
Stories of nutters on buses doesnt change that

And round and round we go....

What is a gender identity?

What does a trans person mean?

This is similar to what was mentioned in the Scottish prisons and males in female prison study.

The one that was published that stated the anecdotal evidence that some of those males detransitioned on release from prison and at least one male was reported to have been upfront in wanting to be placed in the female prison to have sex.

If its meaningless, it wont be a problem then.

The term "identifies as a woman" is meaningless, because we are talking about a male. Not the fact of the person being male. It's precisely because it's a lie that it's a problem. The important information for most women is that this is a male person.

Genuinely, if you need me to explain that to you, I dont know how you can be in engaged in these issues.

I'm being deliberately obtuse here because my explanation will just get ripped apart anyway.

Its meaningless, it doesnt exist,.bla bla bla. People are so far gone it's a waste of anyones time.

Nobody is pretending trans people don't exist FFS. We just think that laws should not be based on something that is fundamentally untrue. Humans cannot change sex. Men cannot become women.

It's really that simple.

You cant just pretend trans people dont exist.

Oh for the love of god, how many times?

How is talking about the impact of self ID on women's rights pretending trans people don't exist.

Characterising the concerns in this way does not progress the wider issue.

Lie is a provocative word, up there with delusion.

Do you honestly think if you just repeat your stance for the rest of time people will stop identifying as trans? Is it a particularly helpful strategy?

Claiming that identifying is meaningless is pretending trans isnt a meaningful thing, equals doesnt exist.

Or do you agree that they exist but just dont give a fuck about their thoughts and feelings and dismiss them?

The one that was published that stated the anecdotal evidence that some of those males detransitioned on release from prison and at least one male was reported to have been upfront in wanting to be placed in the female prison to have sex.

Yes. Some of these men are openly playing the system. Who can blame them, having everything they want served up on a plate with obsequious fawning.

I am obviously repeating what has been said previously but it bears repeating for those entering the discussion here without reading.

If you cannot accurately define a woman to exclude male people when needed, then laws are useless and no longer protect the people they were intended to protect.