To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

So if you think it's twisting feminism to say that women are a definable entity, what is feminism?

People who aren't feminists post there all the time. No one makes them feel unwelcome. I'm sick of this being turned back on us all of the time.

Feminism is a political movement for the rights and autonomy of women.

twitter.com/Strobe_Lightly/status/1616387464985477120?s=20&t=rQqzi_hgUgTM0aZ6i4_IAg

Dr Maria is an interesting character. Worth a read of all her tweets, she's adventurous.

No I get that they're an entity, but the issue with that is the implication that if you are in any way on the fence re trans issues - I dont think transwomen are women but I certainly don't think they're men as alleged earlier, that you cant be a feminist.
My issue with that train of thought is that feminists as they allege themselves to be on threads like this care very much about women and girls - unless of course you're a trans ally with different views to them, or a transman (rarely mentioned on here).

twitter.com/Strobe_Lightly/status/1616367645393129472?s=20&t=rQqzi_hgUgTM0aZ6i4_IAg

Oh, she's a transsexusl of 30 years and she doesn't buy the bull crap.

Well, no. You don't get to call when it's time to move on.

You're not making any sense anyway. It doesn't matter who or what keeps us together. The fact is that we hold differing views and we're both here. So it's clearly not an echo chamber.

Who has been the subject of appalling abuse because she dares to wish to specify who provides her with intimate care.

Sorry? Who are ‘we’.

What are the characteristics you are claiming with that ‘we’?

And dehumanising people is different to personal attacks.

do you not understand the difference? To dehumanise a group is a different action to an ‘attack’ (is that hyperbole?) on an individual.

Exactly. It's been dreadful for her. I do hope the "I'm allright jack" individuals realise they're just a car crash or a fall away from being in Henrietta's situation. The lack of compassion and empathy is stark.

My issue with that train of thought is that feminists as they allege themselves to be on threads like this care very much about women and girls - unless of course you're a trans ally with different views to them, or a transman (rarely mentioned on here).

Both of these are down to the same factor. Trans activism ignores the rights, safety and dignity of women and girls and that's why feminists aren't keen. Trans men present nó threat to women so feminists aren't discussing them. This is the thing. If trans activism wasn't hostile and threatening to women, we would have zero interest in talking about it.

If you claim that your intentions are good, but the result of your actions is bad for one group, then expect to be criticised.

If the results of your actions are so bad that in wartime they would be treated as a war crime, then expect to be criticised.

twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1616769124662906881?s=20&t=rQqzi_hgUgTM0aZ6i4_IAg

This must be hard to defend. Anyone want to try?

I mean this all comes back down to definitions which findmy doesn't want to do.

Feminism is a movement to advance the rights of women, it's about and for women.

if women is defined to include men then, which is what the TRAs want then they will say they are feminists.

This is why there is a reluctance to define terms. In fact it is necessary they remain undefined.

It's indefensible.

It's all comes down to control. Controlling women.

To be clear I don't think this is all individual trans identifying individuals, but this is a gift to men who just don't like women very much and enjoy putting us in our place, and worse.

Men can be feminists. I genuinely believe that, and did long before I knew of trans.

Thank you ereshkigalangcleg

That needs to be shared often.

@BarmyBrunhilde read he Janice Turner article in the Times today, she sets out the debate in very clear terms.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2a58f174-9902-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=51cc190e62095381b1443a5d3141eb0e

To be clear I don't think this is all individual trans identifying individuals, but this is a gift to men who just don't like women very much and enjoy putting us in our place, and worse.

It really is. Case in point, the one on the thread in FWR earlier.

Where did I say men can't be feminists?

I don't particularly have a view on that point. I don't even, at least not until recently, consider myself a feminist.

Nice avoidance of the actual point though which is about defining words and why it is in the interest of activists to avoid definitions.

Again, its not down to me to define words. I dont believe it's down to any one individual to say what something is, and there lies the problem.

I didnt avoid anything.

kpssinfo.org/women-in-prison-speak-out/

Annabelle’s testimony, a few down on the list.

A correction about the male prisoner’s crime - if the two males in the prison, one was in for serious domestic violence the other for murder. She doesn’t say which one she was locked in the holding cell with - either option sounds terrifying.

Maybe Dame Helena Kennedy or Nicola Sturgeon should be invited to try it out as they think it is fine for Annabelle.

She also had a coil fitted as she was terrified of getting raped and made pregnant while in prison.

Some of the women’s testimonies on here are heartbreaking.

This

The discussion was about the way in which posters are referred to. We all get insults one way or the other, so my sympathy is limited. (We being posters).

I find it astonishing that you are labouring the point on gender critical and gender criticals being so offensive and dehumanising after the way that trans people are spoken about every day on here.

Cool. Keep labouring the point then, but I accept no responsibility when posters pop out to accuse me of derailing. I think it's an echo chamber, you dont. Got it.

I’m not sure why we can’t have a compromise- you can be whatever you want to be but only those who were born a women have access to women prisons, shelters or other vulnerable places. In all other aspects of life, it shouldn’t matter what sex someone says they are.