To feel grabby and uncomfortable with this.

[abstractplantpot]

Background - i'm married with kids we own our house and a small business. Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

My father died 5 yrs ago and mum is left with the house they lived in and a small savings pot. She has been diagnosed with dementia and is needing increasing care.

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself. This is fine by me. At the moment we share her care. I also do all the household business like keeping bills paid ensuring she has food and everything she needs.

Sister was advised by "the girls in work" to get legal advice before she did this as she could end up loosing out. I agreed and wanted us to get the correct info on how to do this legally and above board.

I couldn't go with her as i had no child care for the time she made the appointment so she went alone.

She has come back from the solicitor and said she doesn't need to move in with mum. She wants to open a bank account in her name and my name and transfer mums savings to it. Then get the house put into our names. with a document saying mum can live there untill she's no longer able.

For me this doesn't solve the problem of mum needing care! She has gone into that appointment trying to protect her inheritance and not looked at how we can help mum.

She's telling me she needs to look after her own interests as she hasn't got anyone else to do it for her. I have a husband she has no one. She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.

She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket. we own a business and this will be an asset. She's happy to move it into an account
solely in her name which again i'm fine
with but what about caring for mum.

Am i being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with this. I was happy to do it when she was moving into the house (happy to get deeds in her name or joint names not the bank account) to care for mum when she wasn't at work. i'd have gone in during the day. But now she's forgotten all about mum and is concentrating on the money.

How can i make her see i'm unhappy with this with out seeming i'm selfish.
thanks.

You need to be VERY careful about this- transferring house to your names and avoiding care fees is deprivation of assets and I've known social services go after people legally who do this. Otherwise everyone would just transfer their house to avoid care fees. Do not agree to this.

Happy to be corrected by someone that knows better, but your sister's proposals would amount to deprivation of assets. There is no time rule. The council can go back longer than 7 years. Essentially there needs to be an intention to get rid of assets to avoid charges/reduce amount your mum ought to contribute to her own care costs.
^
In your case your mum has dementia and your sister wants to do precisely this.

You as the one with POA need to be v careful. You could be held responsible. Or the council could just disregard the disposal and treat your mum as still having the savings and property in which case you'd get no help at all.^

hope it works out

And what happens when she meets someone new, gets married and has all your mums assets?
Your sister is unbelievably selfish and I can't believe you're worried about coming off as selfish. Please protect your Mum and yourself from this witch.

Sorry, @Pollypandemonium, but buying a property with an annexe for someone with dementia to live in, is not a good idea. Someone with dementia will not understand that they need to stay in their own accomm. much of the time - I’ve known people who’ve made this arrangement driven mad because the parent is endlessly banging on the door at all hours of the night - people with dementia soon lose all sense of time and what’s reasonable - and will not remember at 2.20 am that they already banged on the door and woke everyone up at 1.55 am.

Not to mention that if the person does eventually move to a care home. and their assets have been used to fund a bigger house for someone else, then unless there’s enough money elsewhere, the council will demand that those funds be paid back. They will not care whether it was done with the best of intentions - the way they will see it, a parent’s money has been used to provide an adult child with a bigger house, which = deprivation of assets.

I would contact Mother's bank, explain she has dementia and on no account is a third party to close mothers account, or move it into a different account under a different name.

Before her dementia; did Mother have a lawyer, perhaps one who drew up her Will and might be named in it as her Executor? If so I would contact the lawyer with a similar warning.

and I don't believe poa gives you the right to determine how to split her assets when she dies, either

It doesn't. Lasting PoA lapses when the donor dies.

OP, why did your Mum choose to appoint just you as a sole Attorney, and not you and your sister jointly?
Did she appoint any other people to be notified should anything in the granted power be changed?
Are you Attorney for both Financial and Care matters, and have the relevant Attorneyships been registered with the appropriate Courts?

Yep- I used to work for the council and I know for a fact they WILL go after people legally who do this and they will win.

You do see people arrested for this, it is theft quite frankly.

I suspect the OP doesn’t actually have POA but thinks they do as they “sort out all the bills”.

OP, get formal documented legal advice if you want to avoid getting into trouble with the law and HMRC.

This is very sad. It’s really clear that you have your mum’s best interests at heart whereas your sister…well 😡

There is nothing like the prospect of an inheritance to bring out the worst in people. There’s a not dissimilar situation going on with my extended family.

I don’t know if your sister went to a Toytown solicitor or just made it up on the advice of “the girls from work” but that’s a load of tosh.

I can only echo the advice of PPs - please see a solicitor asap.

I’m also interested to know how she plans to have your mum’s house when 55% if it isn’t hers. Tread very carefully here OP and make sure EVERYTHING is in joint names. You think family won’t screw you over but they absolutely will.

This!

Realistically, can your mother hold out another three years before going into a care home?
I'd tel DS you need time to get a second opinion because you're concerned about what happens if Mom suddenly deteriorates. Offer to arrange it for you both.

Family property trusts don’t always guarantee the council will not decide setting one up acts as a deprivation of assets when assessing care costs, especially in OP’s mother’s case when she has already been diagnosed with dementia.

www.futurelegalservices.co.uk/cautionary-tale-of-property-trusts/

Your sister is prioritising her hoped for inheritance over your mother's health and well being.

The minute the money is in an account with her name on it, even a joint account, she'll be entitled to withdraw ALL of it.

Do not do this.

Get legal advice of your own.

I'd be really concerned about your mother being assessed as "deliberately depriving herself" of income/assets in order not to ave to pay for nursing home care.

I think you & your sister need to contact a charity such as Age Concern.

What is it you both want from the situation?
To have your mother cared for
Too have the security of her own home.

(And your sister's right when she says she has only herself to rely on - single people's living costs are proportionately at least 50% higher than a couple's, so be aware of your sister's sense of insecurity over this).

Are you absolutely sure she saw a solicitor? Because this advice is ‘steal your mum’s money’, which seems unlikely from a solicitor. And it’s also stealing in a way which is very likely to be caught - as the local authority will pick it up when your mum needs care. Which seems even more unlikely from a solicitor.

And please, try to work together with your sister on this. The first idea - that she moves into your mother's home, and that between you, you share the care - you during the day, your sister outside her work hours - is a good if temporary stop gap.

But please start from a position of co-operation in trying to look after your mother, not heating up the situarion as some suggestions here might do.

I wonder what sort of solicitor your sister saw? You really need to find a solicitor who is an expert in elderly care & finances - they exist & it's very specialised work.

I also read this and thought I bet she is.
Your sister is proving herself untrustworthy and is not acting in your mother's best interest.
Go see YOUR OWN solicitor asap. Get the legal advice from the horses mouth rather than your sister's summary of what her solicitor said. Pay for childcare.

The solicitor may advise you to get a power of attorney and a simple will dividing equally between the two of you (so you are not left with an intestate situation if you can avoid it) immediately depending on your mother's condition or diagnosis - or you might have to go through the more difficult route of applying via the court of protection.
Talk to Age concern or similar to see what local services are available for your mum or what kind of care might be needed. You need to budget for your mum's care and future care needs - First and foremost.
The money is NOT anyone's inheritance yet. It still belongs to your mother and she's entitled to get the best care she can with it. Tax planning is prudent and I'm sure your mum would want you to do it, but your sister's idea of paying everything into her own bank account doesn't sound like tax planning to me.

If your sister does this, It could affect your mother's ability to pay for all kinds of services that your mother might need to stay in her own home for a bit longer.
Every request would have to go through your sister and there's no guarantee she may have debts to repay. It could even incur tax if your mother were to die before 7 years had passed. (law changes all the time so check. )

Preparing your info and questions saves so much time and confusion, particularly as this is quite an emotional subject - discussing it formally can really derail your concentration. Ask the solicitor if you can record it so that you can play it back later.

Sometimes it takes a while for people to become accustomed to a parent needing care and it can be a bit fraught or panic driven. I think doing the difficult financial/legal spadework/planning upfront - will allow both you and your sister to make plans for her actual care and will give you more choice in how to do that too. Best of luck

You have to do it, otherwise the government can sell your mums house at below market value and use the money to pay for her care. Definitely switch to both your names or one name but it's so sneaky how they do this!

Oh HELL no!!!

My cousin was like you, trusting in her brother to 'do right'. In her case he managed their mum's money and because of her trust she didn't really 'check up' on him. He'd stolen spent $10,000 USD (that she could find a paper trail for) before she checked the accounts. When she tasked him on this he insisted it was spent on his 'expenses' in connection with his 'duties' as financial caretaker. The 'expenses' included gassing up his family's 4 vehicles, airfare to Uni for his DD, and a laptop 'for mum's bookkeeping' that his DD took to Uni, plus misc cash withdrawals where he took out $100, but $50 was all that ended up in Mum's wallet. It was a mess and took the threat of legal action to fix the situation. He also tried to 'finagle' the house into his own name by telling Cousin he'd 'buy her out' and they could change the deeds to his name since they were POAs. She refused and pointed out that the house wasn't theirs to dispose of, it was their mother's. He pretty much stopped speaking to her after that and any necessars communications were either by text or very tense and terse phone calls.

Because of her experience, although my DBro and I trusted each other implicitly, we set up Mum's POA & finances to require joint signatures for major withdrawals or 'money moves' and we both had electronic access to all her accounts. We just wanted complete transparency for both of us.

See a solicitor ASAP and NEVER agree to any arrangement where you do not have joint fiduciary AND electronic access to your mother's money.

Greed does strange things to people, especially when combined with envy.

You need to be super careful @abstractplantpot

As POA you must act in your mother’s best interests. Legally. Do you have joint POA or just you?

Getting rid of her assets is absolutely not acting in her best interests.

also where did she get the advice from? To escape IHT it would be 7 years, however for deprivation of assets for avoiding care home fees there are NO time limits to how far the LA can go back. If they can prove you’ve done it purely to dodge fees then they can bill. No decent legal professional would have told her that after three years it’s fine.

also where did she get the advice from? To escape IHT it would be 7 years, however for deprivation of assets for avoiding care home fees there are NO time limits to how far the LA can go back. If they can prove you’ve done it purely to dodge fees then they can bill. No decent legal professional would have told her that after three years it’s fine.

I'm glad you pointed this out. I hear so many people advise of the 7 year rule for care homes.

Given your mother has diagnosed dementia, you know she will need care. The council will be like a dog with a bone of her assets go to you both.

Am you need to know is here www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian has she signed a POA? If not you'll need to apply for a deputyship from here. You can also complain to them if your sister did go ahead with this.

When I was caring for MiL I found this invaluable forum.alzheimers.org.uk/ lots of very knowledgeable about both the disease but also the practical and legal side

Don’t touch this with a barge pole. Your mum has been diagnosed with dementia and if you haven’t taken out a power of attorney before she has lost the capacity to understand what that would mean, then it’s too late to do it now. If there is no power of attorney then if you really want to protect your mum from your greedy sister, your best bet would be to contact the office of the public guardian and say you have safeguarding concerns for your mum. They will then investigate and appoint an independent guardian to look after your mums’ interests, including paying bills and the day to day running of the household. You can’t just open a joint account with your sister and then transfer your mum’s savings into it - you couldn’t even do that with a power of attorney, it’s stealing and pretty much the same as marching her to the bank and making her draw money out.

Your mum has the means to pay for her own care if she needed to go into full time care - the house, which would be sold to pay the fees. If your sister tries to carry out this plan, at such time as your mum needs to go into care, social services will carry out a financial assessment and when they find out what’s happened (which they will) your sister will be guilty of deprivation of assets and your mum will be assessed as though she still has the property to sell. If your sister has disposed of the assets in the meantime, they will hold her responsible. And the time limits you’re stating are a myth. Social services can delve back as far as they need to and there’s no time limit on their search. If they come to the conclusion that the property has been disposed of when there was a reasonable assumption that full time care would be needed, then it’s deprivation of assets.