To feel grabby and uncomfortable with this.

[abstractplantpot]

Background - i'm married with kids we own our house and a small business. Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

My father died 5 yrs ago and mum is left with the house they lived in and a small savings pot. She has been diagnosed with dementia and is needing increasing care.

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself. This is fine by me. At the moment we share her care. I also do all the household business like keeping bills paid ensuring she has food and everything she needs.

Sister was advised by "the girls in work" to get legal advice before she did this as she could end up loosing out. I agreed and wanted us to get the correct info on how to do this legally and above board.

I couldn't go with her as i had no child care for the time she made the appointment so she went alone.

She has come back from the solicitor and said she doesn't need to move in with mum. She wants to open a bank account in her name and my name and transfer mums savings to it. Then get the house put into our names. with a document saying mum can live there untill she's no longer able.

For me this doesn't solve the problem of mum needing care! She has gone into that appointment trying to protect her inheritance and not looked at how we can help mum.

She's telling me she needs to look after her own interests as she hasn't got anyone else to do it for her. I have a husband she has no one. She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.

She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket. we own a business and this will be an asset. She's happy to move it into an account
solely in her name which again i'm fine
with but what about caring for mum.

Am i being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with this. I was happy to do it when she was moving into the house (happy to get deeds in her name or joint names not the bank account) to care for mum when she wasn't at work. i'd have gone in during the day. But now she's forgotten all about mum and is concentrating on the money.

How can i make her see i'm unhappy with this with out seeming i'm selfish.
thanks.

I agree, but the question is not whether it’s standard, it’s whether it’s warranted, as in the case I quoted. It can’t be considered acceptable to charge residents fees like these, while paying yourself a massive salary and misdirecting funds meant for direct care.

Those who pay for their own care subsidise those who the Local authority are paying for.
Theyre not supposed to but that’s what happens.
Hence the huge fees.

In my experience the fees are usually higher in places that don't take residents allocated Authority rates. Round here £1400-£1500 per week would be typical for those vs £1000-£1100 for self funders at places that take LA rates.

Your POA does not mean you are entitled to write or rewrite your mothers will. If she has written a will before the onset of dementia then that stands, if she hasn’t written a will, then her estate follows intestacy rules.

You can't rewrite her will. It's see a solicitor and also get clarification of what you can and can't do as poa

Yes, I know. There’s a home in our area that specialises in dementia care and self funders are charged £1000 a month more than LA funded residents for the same facilities. At that rate, someone self funding who lives five years in a care home, will have contributed £60,000 to the care of others from their own funding source. It’s wrong and as you say, it shouldn’t happen, but until someone comes up with a fairer system the elderly will continue to be gouged if they want decent care.

Yes I've visited residents in a care home recently to help them claim Attendance Allowance and they were paying £4k a month and everyone in the home was self funding, no residents were funded by the LA. The home even asked me if I'd go back and do a talk in case there were any more residents not claiming the disability benefits they should ! I guess the amount is a small bit towards what they are paying themselves.

A good point. If her mum already has a diagnosis of dementia, no solicitor would agree to rewriting the will unless she can demonstrate that she has the capacity to understand and agree to the changes, and it wouldn’t help anyway as in the event that she has to go into care, any money or property left to others in the will would still be used for care until she came under the threshold for LA contributions. And if the OP wasn’t clear on what she can and can’t do as POA, she shouldn’t really have taken it on. As the holder of the POA she will be held legally responsible if it comes to light that she knew what was happening and didn’t stop it. She can’t claim ignorance either, because the POA handbook details how to report suspected financial abuse to the office of the public guardian.

Yep. And these residents will likely be moved to LA funded care homes once their funding runs out, unless relatives are willing to top up the fees themselves. Must be a real wrench for the resident.

From the OP’s original post:

Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

and:

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself.

She owns her own home and is proposing to either sell it or rent it out to move back in with her mum. What I find breathtaking about this plan, apart from the indefensible greed and disregard for the mother’s welfare, is that both the OP and her sister appear to think the Local Authority don’t have any powers to investigate, and won’t find out what’s happening. Does the sister really think that the LA will be amenable to deferring care home fees while she lives in her mum’s home, despite the fact that she has sold her own home or rented it out to do so. It comes across as exactly what it is - an attempt to undermine their mother and steal her assets with no regard for what happens to their mother as a result.

OP, of course you can’t, and you haven’t been back to the thread since yesterday, so how about an update on what you’ve decided to do. You have your mothers’ POA and as such, you are the only one who has any legal right to do anything with your mothers’ money or property. Your sister has no say in it. At all. And everything you do as POA must be in your mothers’ best interests. Do you think transferring (stealing) your mums’ money into a joint account in yours and your sisters’ name and then doing the same with her house is in her best interests ? Are you aware that under the terms of the POA you can’t do anything to benefit yourself ? And trying to change her will is even worse. She already has a diagnosis of dementia, so unless she can demonstrate that she understands and agrees to the well being changed, that too is illegal - the will she made before she was diagnosed with dementia still stands. But at the end of the day even that means nothing if she needs to go into full time care - the house would be included in the financial assessment and the proceeds of its’ sale would fund her care.

Your sister is either lying or she has misunderstood what the alleged solicitor has said. There is no timescale on the amount of time the local authority can go back to investigate your mums’ finances to establish whether she is liable to fund her own care. If your sister wanted the LA to defer payment while she lives in the house, she would have to have been living there at the time your mum went into care, and would have to be over 60, or have an incapacitating disability, and genuinely have nowhere else to live - as things stand she’s proposing to either rent out her own home, or sell it, deliberately making herself homeless.

If your sister has actually consulted a solicitor, not only have they given her out of date and terrible advice, she has likely not told the solicitor that you have your mums’ POA or the solicitor would have made it clear that she has to defer to you, and that neither of you can do any of what you propose legally.

You don’t seem to know very much about the responsibilities you carry as your mums’ attorney and ignorance is not a defence. If you even suspect that your sister is considering something like this, or, as seems the case, she is trying to coerce you into agreeing, then as POA you have a duty to report it to the office of the public guardian - the people who registered the POA. They can then advise you as to what to do.

It comes down to this. Ultimately as POA you would have to agree to what your sister is proposing, as she can’t go against the authority you have as your mum’s sole attorney. You already know that none of it is in your mums’ best interests so if you knowingly go ahead you will be in breach of the POA and you will be in serious trouble when everything comes to light. Which it will. Don’t touch it with a barge pole - your sister has no right secure her own future at the expense of your vulnerable mothers’ welfare.

@Lovelysausagedogscrumpy - Yes, I stand corrected - but the POA I had for my late Mother did allow 'gifts etc' so it is possible depending on the wording

To do any of this you will need Power of Attorney for both the financial part and the decision of your mother's medical needs. Both would be worth looking into as you will need to pay for your mother's care. This does not mean that you should transfer your mother's assets into your names but that you can act on her behalf if she is deemed unable to act on her own behalf and that is the point. This is a discussion that you both should discuss with a solicitor and you must make sure that you attend any appointment. Your mother can be cared for in her own home and this should be discussed with social services when the need arises. Additionally, you should talk to Age UK and look on google for local support charities. They can help with advice and support for both you, your sister and your mother. I wish you all well.

Basically your sister is trying to rob your Mum. Shocking.

You won’t be allowed to do this and then claim for free social care, it doesn’t work that way, social services will go through your mums accounts and see that this has been done and will expects her to pay towards her care up to a certain amount

As far as I can make out your sister wants your mother s home so it doesn’t get sold to pay for her care , she’s looking after her own interests what about your mothers care ! It’s her bloody money and her house this makes my blood boil, our dads home had to be sold to fund his care. That’s how it works

@SnowyOwl1 There has always been a disagreement about this. Hubby and I worked hard, saved money from our taxed income, paid tax on savings, did without and eventually bought our house. We pay for any repairs and maintenance. We pay council tax and any other blasted tax that the government can think of. Why should we, or people like us, have to sell our homes just because we've worked hard to buy and maintain it? This is just governmental greed and an attack on the middle/working class to take capital items from them. And, yes, all governments have attacked people like us taxwise. I'm aware that buying your own property is a big thing but if you lose your job and are unemployed there is no help with a mortgage but rent is paid (up to a certain limit). In other words there is no true equality between homeowners and renters. Why do we have to sell our homes or use up our pensions for care? We've already paid.

One of the things that I don't follow is why self funders pay more. I hate to think how many years ago I worked at a charity which ran several care homes. A formal complaint about self funders paying more meant that we had to charge them the same amount as LA payers. There should not be any difference in prices unless you get better rooms or something. LA costs, to the best of my knowledge, are based on the type of care needed.

I don’t think u are being treated fairly. I think u should make an appointment with a solicitor, write out your questions, ask her would she like to go with you. And keep a record of everything that happens, a dairy if you like. Paper trail is king in a situation like this. Try not to fall out with her coz that will make it worse on all levels. Be firm but fair. Stand your ground.

I presume the LA set up big contracts with set fees. Bigger purchasing power.

Why should we, or people like us, have to sell our homes just because we've worked hard to buy and maintain it?

Why should you be able to hang onto it & others pay for your care?

Why should we, or people like us, have to sell our homes just because we've worked hard to buy and maintain it?

Why should the public pot fund you?

Seriously. I get why it might feel frustrating. But there isn't enough money to go round as there is, and people that can fund their own care need to do that. Imagine how the tax bill would need to rise if all residential placements were funded so that you can protect your inheritance. I don't want to pay more so you get your inheritance.

Even if she was poor as a church mouse and you were rolling in it, if your mum wants you both to have an equal share then that’s her wish. No one deserves more or less inheritance based on their financial circumstances. DH’s sibling is waaaay better off than us, has a serious amount of money, but he/I would not expect his parents to split the inheritance any way other than 50/50.

I can’t believe you’re happy for your sister to sell her own home and move into your mum’s because she fancies living in it. Are you for real? Your sister is on the make and you seem blind to it. Do not, under any circumstances, allow this. Also, as others have said, what she’s proposing isn’t legal. You are jointly robbing your mother and attempting to defraud the state.

If your mom does not have capacity to consent and your sister takes the money or puts house in her name. The power of attorney can get in trouble fro fraud. You have to make decisions for her otherwise it’s not being used correctly . Plus if you go to the council to ask for funding care or care home and they notice any money gone or the home changed they could class that as deprivation of her assets. You need to ask solicitor what you are able to and not able to do .