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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel grabby and uncomfortable with this.

374 replies

abstractplantpot · 20/01/2023 11:38

Background - i'm married with kids we own our house and a small business. Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

My father died 5 yrs ago and mum is left with the house they lived in and a small savings pot. She has been diagnosed with dementia and is needing increasing care.

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself. This is fine by me. At the moment we share her care. I also do all the household business like keeping bills paid ensuring she has food and everything she needs.

Sister was advised by "the girls in work" to get legal advice before she did this as she could end up loosing out. I agreed and wanted us to get the correct info on how to do this legally and above board.

I couldn't go with her as i had no child care for the time she made the appointment so she went alone.

She has come back from the solicitor and said she doesn't need to move in with mum. She wants to open a bank account in her name and my name and transfer mums savings to it. Then get the house put into our names. with a document saying mum can live there untill she's no longer able.

For me this doesn't solve the problem of mum needing care! She has gone into that appointment trying to protect her inheritance and not looked at how we can help mum.

She's telling me she needs to look after her own interests as she hasn't got anyone else to do it for her. I have a husband she has no one. She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.

She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket. we own a business and this will be an asset. She's happy to move it into an account
solely in her name which again i'm fine
with but what about caring for mum.

Am i being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with this. I was happy to do it when she was moving into the house (happy to get deeds in her name or joint names not the bank account) to care for mum when she wasn't at work. i'd have gone in during the day. But now she's forgotten all about mum and is concentrating on the money.

How can i make her see i'm unhappy with this with out seeming i'm selfish.
thanks.

OP posts:
vaccinistatotebagchicbarista · 21/01/2023 18:33

Sure, she needs to look after herself. Fine. But what about the mum who looked after her for so long?

No additional advice to what’s been said, but definitely get a second solicitor’s opinion. Big red flags.

godmum56 · 21/01/2023 18:33

iwannascream · 20/01/2023 11:47

Its 7 years not 3 years, for moving assets to not pay for care home fee's etc. The council can and will check all and every case.

its worse than that. there actually is no limit on how far a council can go back when considering whether deliberate deprivation has occurred. Section 7.3 in the link (Age concern info on deliberate deprivation) says that the receiver of any assets that are can be made to return them. but setting that aside what she is proposing is not just nasty but illegal

MamaSharkDooDooDooDooDooDooo · 21/01/2023 18:50

I find this kind of thing very weird and grabby. My brother is like this. I have three children, he has one. I don't want my parents to die and would much rather have them here than have their money. But my dad has mentioned in passing that the children will get a percentage in his Will. Brother has asked for a larger percentage as he has less children... Grabby.

I wouldn't trust your sister at all. What she is doing is shady as well as immoral. Definitely get advice and please stop her. Your mum needs her money for her care!

Having had two grandmothers who have had dementia my heart goes out to you, it is a tough road x

MMUmum · 21/01/2023 18:54

Unless you have power of attorney over your mums affairs this will be tricky as your mum may be unable to give informed consent depending on the stage of her dementia. She should ideally have an advocate to represent her wishes

mylifestory · 21/01/2023 18:57

you dont need a solicitor for this, you need an accountant / financial adviser. Id say to go to 1 together and start again.

Fudgemonkeys · 21/01/2023 18:59

Get legal advice!!! NOW!!!!! Good luck. Tell your sister NO!

grumpycow1 · 21/01/2023 19:05

Get your own legal advice and push back, don’t be rushed!

piedbeauty · 21/01/2023 19:18

Christ. Your sister does indeed sound grabby. And she's wrong. You can't just move your poor mum's assets! And she can't change your mum's will!

Go to a financial adviser who specialises in IHT planning and get some proper advice.

Zanatdy · 21/01/2023 19:20

I’d say you will make an appointment at a time you can go together to a solicitor and won’t be rushed into anything.

FlowersLucy · 21/01/2023 19:40

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 21/01/2023 15:06

OP, of course you can’t, and you haven’t been back to the thread since yesterday, so how about an update on what you’ve decided to do. You have your mothers’ POA and as such, you are the only one who has any legal right to do anything with your mothers’ money or property. Your sister has no say in it. At all. And everything you do as POA must be in your mothers’ best interests. Do you think transferring (stealing) your mums’ money into a joint account in yours and your sisters’ name and then doing the same with her house is in her best interests ? Are you aware that under the terms of the POA you can’t do anything to benefit yourself ? And trying to change her will is even worse. She already has a diagnosis of dementia, so unless she can demonstrate that she understands and agrees to the well being changed, that too is illegal - the will she made before she was diagnosed with dementia still stands. But at the end of the day even that means nothing if she needs to go into full time care - the house would be included in the financial assessment and the proceeds of its’ sale would fund her care.

Your sister is either lying or she has misunderstood what the alleged solicitor has said. There is no timescale on the amount of time the local authority can go back to investigate your mums’ finances to establish whether she is liable to fund her own care. If your sister wanted the LA to defer payment while she lives in the house, she would have to have been living there at the time your mum went into care, and would have to be over 60, or have an incapacitating disability, and genuinely have nowhere else to live - as things stand she’s proposing to either rent out her own home, or sell it, deliberately making herself homeless.

If your sister has actually consulted a solicitor, not only have they given her out of date and terrible advice, she has likely not told the solicitor that you have your mums’ POA or the solicitor would have made it clear that she has to defer to you, and that neither of you can do any of what you propose legally.

You don’t seem to know very much about the responsibilities you carry as your mums’ attorney and ignorance is not a defence. If you even suspect that your sister is considering something like this, or, as seems the case, she is trying to coerce you into agreeing, then as POA you have a duty to report it to the office of the public guardian - the people who registered the POA. They can then advise you as to what to do.

It comes down to this. Ultimately as POA you would have to agree to what your sister is proposing, as she can’t go against the authority you have as your mum’s sole attorney. You already know that none of it is in your mums’ best interests so if you knowingly go ahead you will be in breach of the POA and you will be in serious trouble when everything comes to light. Which it will. Don’t touch it with a barge pole - your sister has no right secure her own future at the expense of your vulnerable mothers’ welfare.

Show quote history

I came here to write this. I’ve seen countless POAs taken to court by the OPG for this sort of stuff, because they don’t understand their duty as POA and think they have carte blanche to do whatever they want with their parent’s money when they go into care.

No.

OP you need to see a solicitor who specialises in court of protection work. This isn’t an optional thing. You have a fiduciary duty and with the greatest of respect are clearly clueless about what being a POA means. You could be the one who ends up in court here.

gardenflowergirl · 21/01/2023 19:59

No solicitor would give that advice as it's wrong, so I suspect your sister is lying to protect her own interests. No one can put someone else's house in their own name, you could be taken to court for that and all the consequences that would cause. When your mum needs care they do a financial assessment and can go back 7 years and even if your mum does it willingly the social will put a charge on the house for care fees if they suspect deprivation of assets to avoid fees. Which means when the house is sold theres the legal entitlement of the care fees from the sale of the property. I've been through all this with my elderly parents. The correct way to do it is for your mum to appoint attorneys for finance and health and welfare which has to be done via a solicitor and the court system. Don't get yourself into trouble by doing what your sister says. Your mum has t have full capacity to make decisions about attorney's, solicitor can come to the house, if solicitor sees your mum has lost capacity, it's too late to put this in place.

anne0098 · 21/01/2023 20:09

Has the power of att. been done by a solicitor? Just because you make sure the bills are paid and organize a hairdresser to come to the house does not make it legal. Check with a solicitor to be on the safe side.

Justbefair · 21/01/2023 20:53

Huge no, doesn't she care about her Mum?! Don you know about a fund available to have her looked after in her own home and have paid carers? It's a bit of a misdirection from advice but entitled. A friend has her Mum with dementia cared for 24 hours a day in her home, which they savilly bought as 3 owners. Worth looking into. No way would we want out Mum's to go to a care home if option to do this. X

T1Dmama · 21/01/2023 21:15

This.
please seek advice.
and please don’t just say you’re happy for her to put money in her name and move into the house…. Just because you’re doing well for yourself now, you never know when things will change. Companies go under, husbands leave….. you might just need your inheritance one day!!
more to the point you probably won’t want the assets ‘hidden’ and your mum being shoved into a government funded home, she earnt her house and savings and deserves for the best care if she needs it!
my neighbour was left with a huge monthly bill because her siblings took ‘their share’ of the house and didn’t care what home she went in, my neighbour chose to upgrade the care home to one where staff actually GAS and had to foot the difference herself!

PoIIyPandemonium · 21/01/2023 21:21

anne0098 · 21/01/2023 20:09

Has the power of att. been done by a solicitor? Just because you make sure the bills are paid and organize a hairdresser to come to the house does not make it legal. Check with a solicitor to be on the safe side.

POA will be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. It's easy to check by contacting them. Although I'm sure the op already knows and the POA is registered.

PoIIyPandemonium · 21/01/2023 21:22

more to the point you probably won’t want the assets ‘hidden’ and your mum being shoved into a government funded home, she earnt her house and savings and deserves for the best care if she needs it!

I definitely agree with this. Choice, if people can have one, makes such a difference.

Jayne35 · 21/01/2023 21:28

more to the point you probably won’t want the assets ‘hidden’ and your mum being shoved into a government funded home, she earnt her house and savings and deserves for the best care if she needs it!

Same care homes though, those with money pay, and those without the government pay for them. There are hardly any council homes left now, majority are private.

PoIIyPandemonium · 21/01/2023 21:45

Same care homes though, those with money pay, and those without the government pay for them. There are hardly any council homes left now, majority are private.

The council only contract with some of them though.

Keepingitmoving · 21/01/2023 21:52

OP 100% get your own legal advice on this as it is an absolute minefield. Absolutely focus on care arrangements for your mum but definitely factor in how that will be paid for.

Gemcat1 · 21/01/2023 22:51

@pollypandemonium No, the residents came from several different boroughs. I have no doubt that there was an agreement on the maximum that they would pay but sometimes they had no money to support a resident in the home and that then created problems because a bed could not be kept open.

PhoenixIsFlying · 21/01/2023 23:35

This does not sound right at all. I am single and live in a small property with my daughter and now my mum who has dementia. I gave up my job as she cannot be left alone. Both of my brothers are financially much better off than me. Mums house is empty. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that I should somehow benefit more than my brother's if something happened to mum. Everything would be divided equally. We want to sell the house as there may come a time when I am unable to care for her and the proceeds of the house will go towards her care.

Newcast80 · 22/01/2023 00:39

Absolutely say NO to this. She is basically trying to take all of your mothers assets and dupe you out of an inheritance and your mother out of her assets.

If she were to move into your nothers house to care for her and rent her own house out how is she losing out? She's not. She is a scammer.

Seek legal advice eitheryourself because what she is saying makes no sense unless she is trying to take everything because once your mother is gone there would be nothing you could do. Everything would have been on her name for years and your right, it doesnt address the care needs of your mother.

What piece of work sister is.

ivykaty44 · 22/01/2023 01:54

PhoenixIsFlying Your brothers have done one on you

Glitterlikeawinner · 22/01/2023 08:31

abstractplantpot · 20/01/2023 12:08

So am
i right i'm thinking she can't just go ahead and do this stuff?

Sorry for not reading the full thread so may be repeating what others have said but I've recently gone through all of this so thought it would be helpful to offer some advice.
Firstly, if your mum has a diagnosis of dementia it will be difficult unless a solicitor or GP are involved in her making any financial decisions such as changing will or putting house in others name.
Secondly, as her diagnosis is likely to result in her needing care at some point, moving any assets at this stage for the reason of reducing the funding for this for a future financial assessment is likely to be considered Deprivation of Assets and these assets, even though they are no longer in her bank account or her name, will be included in this assessment to ascertain if she is self funding or not. So even if a house worth £200k is now in your name it will still be included as an asset for the purpose of the assessment as they will consider that at the time it transferred she knew she would need care for her condition and this is Deprivation of this asset.
The 7 years inheritance tax rule is not the biggest consideration in this case. If you knew at the point of moving assets that the person would likely need care in the future the 7 years inheritance tax rule is pointless.
I suspect the legal advice the solicitor suggested was for your mum to put the house in a living trust, which basically means signing the property over to trustees but she remains living in the house and 'paying' a negligible amount of rent to the trustees. THIS is the most sensible approach which I would highly recommend to anyone with elderly parents but ONLY who are still fit and well enough to make these decisions and not for the purpose of avoiding care fees. This also means that after the parent passes away the home is immediately owned by trustees and does not need to go through probate. What the solicitor or you sister may have failed to omit discussions about, was your mums current health condition and that by putting your mums house in trust at this stage could be considered Deprivation of Assets and also if she has mental capacity to make the decision, if she doesnt and you have POA as you say are you working in her best interests, not the family in terms of inheritance.
Honestly, while it sounds grabby that she's forgotten about moving in with your mum to support her, the actual idea is practical but sadly I suspect it is too late for this approach.
Anyone reading this, please consider living trusts to protect your assets, otherwise the government will come along and take everything to pay for your care and leave your family member with £14,500 despite paying taxes for your whole life - you are looking at around £1000 on average per week for care homes.
Just want to add a note too to sympathise with your situation with your mum, Dementia is a cruel disease and sadly the social care system and support from health professionals for this condition is pretty rubbish. Most people who get a diagnosis have not further interactions with doctors after the diagnosis, you are just left to get on with it. Happy for you to PM me if you need anything that I can help with.

**I'm not a legal professional, just someone who has recently gone through the same with my mother in law. Please go and get legal advice independently. It's unlikely any solicitor would give any advice to avoid care payments in the future as this is fraudulent.

Glitterlikeawinner · 22/01/2023 08:41

Just to add to this as others have said, hardly any council care homes, my MIL was placed by council into private care home, which is likely somewhere we would have chosen. Originally they discussed that family members would just need to pay a top up fee towards this. She the council paid £900 a week but cost was £1000 so we would have been liable to £100 top up only. It cannot come from the persons assets but only from family members. So please dont think if you are not self funding you are going to end up in the worst council run care home, this isn't true. You still make a decision on the care and if you're not happy with the care you can complain and ask to be moved.