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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

451 replies

HermioneWeasley · 19/01/2023 21:13

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

To think political discussion does belong on  Mumsnet
OP posts:
Helleofabore · 20/01/2023 22:20

”we were to put trans people in with sex offenders, then every trans person who committed a non sexual offence would be shoved in with them to.”

There are vulnerable male prison areas. Of course there are and all vulnerable male prisoners should also be cared for.

But your statement certainly doesn’t mean that vulnerable males or males with trans identities should be housed with female prisoners. Why would any male be included in a female prison? Do female prisoners not deserve dignity and privacy?

Do you realise the immensely high proportion of female prisoners who have been sexually abused or violently assaulted by males in their life? Much higher than the general population.

Why would you lock traumatised females into prisons with males?

Also, if a male is housed in the prison but in another wing, it means the female prisoner’s freedom is restricted if the prison then does keep them separated. They get less scheduled time outdoors for instance.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2023 22:22

Thinkbiglittleone · 20/01/2023 21:54

Of course political discussion belongs on here, it belong everywhere.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, it should be voiced respectfully and responded to respectfully, that's healthy debate, I think that's where MN struggles with being a respected platform for debate, but the right to debate definitely belongs here,

Have you been on the internet much?

MN is by far the most civilised place on the internet for debate I've been.

As in actual debate rather than just echo chambers that have already excluded / silenced any kind of dissenting voice.

It's more balanced than other places I've seen in that respect. It's certainly a great deal more free from the sexual harassment I've had elsewhere. Or the sexist put downs and belittlings I've had for merely being there.

Genuinely. MN does have it's flaws and there are certain subjects where MN reflects it's female user base (meaning the debate is fundamentally focused on a different aspect and therefore has a certain bias - but this is a counter weight to other social media and forums) but it's on the whole a lot more civilized.

I feel safe on MN in a way I don't feel on certain other platforms (and why I self exclude from them)

As for not being respected - that's why MN has helped change major policies on a number of occasions.

sanluca · 20/01/2023 22:24

GailBlancheViola · 20/01/2023 21:37

In my head, I was imagining separate cells and living conditions but in the same building/plot of land, maybe mixing for meals or exercise or work?

Why?

The figures for prisoners in England and Wales for 2019 were:

79,140 males
3,795 females

How do you possibly think your idea is at all credible?

Denmark tried this, locking the female prisoners in the same prisons but separate wings for sleeping etc. Reason for this is that they only had one womens prison in the whole country and when the building got condemned, they thought it was easier to just redistribute the women across existing jails.
Turns out it leads to the women being prostituted by the male prisoners. New womens prison should be open by now...

RichardBarrister · 20/01/2023 22:26

It’s great that you are thinking about these issues a bit more.

Some background.

Elizabeth Fry started her campaign in 1817 and won a change in the law in 1823 to ensure women were segregated from men in prisons due to the dire conditions in which women were incarcerated, often through no fault of their own.

Subsequently the Geneva Convention stipulates single sex accommodation and hygiene facilities for all prisoners of war.

Currently in UK prisons, female prisoners do not enjoy this basic minimum standard given to prisoners of war - the worst of times. They suffer sanctions if they complain about the male born trans people who demanded to use the communal showers at the same time as them, or if they suffer sexual harassment in their cells in free association time or when they get flashed at in the lunch queue (I am referencing directly reported situations for female prisoners).

The website Keep Prisons Single Sex gives personal testimony of prisoners and I think has a former prisoner on the board.

titchy · 20/01/2023 22:27

No I wasn’t aware of that, but if we were to put trans people in with sex offenders, then every trans person who committed a non sexual offence would be shoved in with them to.

It isn't just sex offenders that are on vulnerable wings though. Bent coppers (channelling my inner Ted Hastings Grin), those with learning difficulties and other characteristics that means they wouldn't be safe in the general population. So there wouldn't be a problem from that sense.

RichardBarrister · 20/01/2023 22:28

Sorry my last comment was to @electricdreaming

Delphinium20 · 20/01/2023 22:28

Every single man in prison would be better off if housed with women prisoners. Men are at risk from other male prisoners for a whole host of reasons beyond the paedophiles : Gay men, men from the wrong/gang/religion/ethnic group, weak mean, pretty men, men with disabilities, men with mental health pathologies, racists, men who look at other men the wrong way. Men will find reasons to attack or assault other men. It's well documented male pattern violent behavior.

So, how and why are men who identify as women considered extra special versus all the other men at risk and why should women's prisons be a fix?

Poll ALL men in prison, "Would you prefer spending your prison time housed with men or housed with women, which would you choose?" I mean, c'mon, do we even need to ask?!?!?!!

TheKeatingFive · 20/01/2023 22:30

Ireland has trans-identified prisoners in female jails.

The women in Limerick prison have the extremely dubious pleasure of hosting Barbie Khardashian (not a joke, google it) who is incarcerated for violent crimes against women (among other things).

This person is in solitary confinement but apparently yells sexual abuse at the female prisoners from their cell. Guards and social workers have had breakdowns because of the stress of keeping them away from the other inmates.

Its an absolute fucking car crash.

ScrollingLeaves · 20/01/2023 22:35

NowDoYouBelieveMe · Yesterday 21:37

Given the context of the protest, it looks like they're referring to the deeply anti-trans side of Mumsnet. I think you know that too, so your aibu is pretty disingenuous.

They're not saying "keep politics off Mumsnet" anyway - it's "keep Mumsnetters' anti-trans beliefs out of political policymaking".

That is the same as saying keep women’s beliefs, about how women as a class may be disproportionately affected by certain changes in the law, out of political policy making.

That is disenfranchising women.

Delphinium20 · 20/01/2023 22:37

TheKeatingFive · 20/01/2023 22:30

Ireland has trans-identified prisoners in female jails.

The women in Limerick prison have the extremely dubious pleasure of hosting Barbie Khardashian (not a joke, google it) who is incarcerated for violent crimes against women (among other things).

This person is in solitary confinement but apparently yells sexual abuse at the female prisoners from their cell. Guards and social workers have had breakdowns because of the stress of keeping them away from the other inmates.

Its an absolute fucking car crash.

This makes me sick. He's using the women's prison as his fodder for, well, we all know.

TheKeatingFive · 20/01/2023 22:42

This makes me sick. He's using the women's prison as his fodder for, well, we all know.

And being cheered on by the enablers, the hand maidens and the useful idiots to do so.

Helleofabore · 20/01/2023 22:42

It is not just female prisoners. It is female prison officer as well. In Canada before Christmas a female prison officer was awarded compensation because she was forced to watch a male prisoner (in the female section as they declared they were a woman) masturbate while that prisoner had to be watched by camera on suicide watch. The prisoner knew a female was watching. The prison officer was a child sex abuse suffered and declared before the shift that she was uncomfortable watching this male.

it is Canada but it is not unreasonable to expect that this could be possible here as well.

I hope this link works.

www.canlii.org/en/on/onwsiat/doc/2022/2022onwsiat1544/2022onwsiat1544.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQALVHJhbnNnZW5kZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=5

Also, female prison guards? Should they have to do intimate body searches on male prisoners who have declared trans identities?

What about female police officers when they have to do a search.

Delphinium20 · 20/01/2023 22:46

Excellent point Helle. "Guarding wanking male prisoners" was obvioulsy not in the job description. It's one thing to accept you'll deal with difficult behavior from women, it's a world of difference to accept a position dealing with it from men.

The concept of consent has been destroyed with gender ideology.

TheKeatingFive · 20/01/2023 22:49

Urg that's absolutely disgusting. That poor woman.

Helleofabore · 20/01/2023 23:11

The thing is, this issue gets so often reduced by people who want to shut down the discussions as anti-trans to revolve around ‘toilets’. Toilets are what extreme trans activists want the discussion to be about so they can dismiss the many everyday issues caused by prioritising gender above sex when it is sex that matters.

If an activist can keep the discussion about toilets they feel they can convince readers using emotional manipulation. They will use phrases like ‘I have no issue with a transwoman just needing to pee. The cubicles are locked’.

Also, what about when cubicle locks are broken? Or a pram is stuck in the door (I used the toilets with the door jammed open for over a year because of lack of family rooms )

And what about the situation described by MP Miriam Cates in parliament this week when she described a man in a dress who entered the toilets as she was washing her hands and just stood behind her and stared at her in the mirror. Was this person trans? She doesn’t know. She left immediately and said nothing. How would she even know?

But anyway, the issues really are incredibly wide ranging.

And while my examples of prison guards and police doing searches was based on female guards / police. What about a female prisoner who has declared a trans identity - should they be intimately searched by a male police officer or prison guard? What about if they are menstruating at the time ? Should they still be searched by a male in a strip search?

LexMitior · 20/01/2023 23:46

Great post.

The issue is about risk. Prison is a very risky place, for prisoners and staff. You are in a place for years potentially that you cannot get away from, who have been sent there because their conduct has harmed the public. Prison is not a neutral place. It is not like a little microcosm of society. It is extreme. Prisoners are people who do not have boundaries, in fact they are often expert at pushing, manipulating or attacking others. It's why they are there.

Being trans is not some sort of wipe clean cloth on the above. But it is used by sex offenders, paedophiles and other deviants in a male prison who stand to be attacked by other prisoners as the lowest of low a ticket out of a very dangerous situation personally, to one much less personally risky with possibly a few sexual perks thrown in.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/01/2023 00:11

FOJN · Today 00:05

^electricdreaming · Yesterday 23:28
To the posters saying there isn’t transphobia on here, I saw a thread the other day (think it was on FWR) about complications following surgery for trans people. I saw multiple replies along the lines of “oh well” “shame” as if because they were trans, they deserved that? And even if you argue that when there is transphobia, it’s reported and removed, surely the fact that it’s even there in the first place in such volumes is quite telling? There’s a difference between wanting to protect female only spaces, and thinking someone’s life is less worthy because of how they identify/what they are.

Link to the thread for anyone who wants to see for themselves. Only one post was deleted for insensitivity to transpeople, the post was flippant and although it can't be seen now you can see where that poster was quoted and how others responded.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4721731-complications-from-trans-surgery

Thank you for linking the thread in question, FOJN

I only got through the first six pages. perhaps other pages were different but I saw one post saying ‘Oh well’, which was indeed being dismissive. This post was criticised for being very wrong.

The other posts, page after page were not transphobic, or dismissive, or saying a trans life was less important, but on the contrary vehemently transurgeonphobic precisely because the surgery harms those lives.

Generally speaking no small amount of what is called transphobia is women being against this transgender movement because it can be be so destructive to young people’s bodies and minds.

Helleofabore · 21/01/2023 06:57

From The Times today.

Women have had years of this now. “Keep Mumsnet out of politics,” said a placard at a demonstration where Russell-Moyle shared a platform with the trans woman Sarah Jane Baker, who served 30 years in prison for kidnap and attempted murder. Boring old mums, pesky women seeing through the GRR’s outrageous misogyny and sophistry to say: this is our business

And some great insight into the wide scope of the issues and male’s reaction to women campaigning.

including this:

”What if lesbians wanted their own club, or female survivors of child sexual abuse formed a support group? A male with a GRC, even without the Haldane ruling, cannot be excluded.”

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2a58f174-9902-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=51cc190e62095381b1443a5d3141eb0e

Another considered article by Janice Turner.

Helleofabore · 21/01/2023 07:13

And this from Rosie Duffield about an issue that the Labour Party does seem to currently have.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11660179/Rosie-Duffield-reveals-suffers-low-level-trauma-political-isolation.html

and Rosie’s article here;

unherd.com/2023/01/the-labour-party-has-a-woman-problem/

By the way, any poster who denounces the Daily Mail as a reason to not read an article, that says more about your own prejudices and lack of ability to think critically than the source of the article.

Slothtoes · 21/01/2023 07:35

That’s a brilliant article by Janice Turner thank you for posting it

Helleofabore · 21/01/2023 08:02

Coming back to the ‘"generally GC views are seen as right wing", and this is not a post aimed at any one poster.

There is a huge disconnect in some people’s mind around left/right wing.

It is true that extreme trans activists attempt to make this into a polarised left and right wing issue. To do this they use the words ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’.

One, reducing the rights of one group in the areas of conflict when gender is prioritised above sex, such as single sex spaces, sports etc, to elevate the rights of another group is most certainly not ‘liberal’ and not progressive’.

Two, this then also ignores that identity and declaring a gender identity is very much an individualistic notion. Not a collective one. And individualism is more associated with capitalism and consumerism. Hardly notions that align with ‘left wing’ politics.

So, again, extreme trans activists and their allies use this hyperbole and misrepresentation to emotionally manipulate others.

It is hyperbole because the words recently so often use ‘far right’ in an attempt to make the difference so polarising that surely no reasonable and kind and tolerant person would ever want to be associated with such thoughts even!!

And misrepresentation because they use the term ‘gender critical’ to associate two very different motivations so that again they can use that shame to silence discussion. The two very different motivations are that of feminists who shun stereotypes vs people who use stereotypes to define women’s roles.

Both groups don’t believe that sex can ever change. Both groups believe that children and young people should not be ever told they could be, or are, in the ‘wrong body’ and that affirming only treatment paths are very harmful. Both groups believe that female single sex spaces remain just that, single sex.

However, despite have some intersecting beliefs on the superficial level, there are usually quite different beliefs underpinning the high level concepts. And the overall movements are opposed in many other areas.

So, people who seek to dismiss the claims of feminists and other women will use the intersecting areas to portray those feminists and non-aligned women as ‘supporting’ the groups who may uphold views the feminists vehemently oppose.

In other words, extreme activists dishonestly group the two together and then declare that feminists ‘hold the same views as these often right wing groups’. Hence they then misapply the term ‘gender critical’, which many feminists don’t even use, and attach it to ‘right wing’.

When you see the manipulative nature of a movement who are prying open and destabilising the meaning of well established words such as women, girl, lesbian, even liberal, progressive and particularly ‘tolerant’, you cannot unsee it. When you start questioning why is the T joined with the LGB when so many transitioners under the ‘trans umbrella’ are actually heterosexual?

Why is that? Why has the origInal use of the term intersectional feminism been destabilised and changed to include males? Feminism is for all females! Yet after now including male people, feminism now fights for all minorities according to many intersectional feminists. Now also referred to as ‘liberal’ feminists.

Just like the LGB group Stonewall accepted a fundamental change to then include a subset of those who are heterosexual and would have been the original oppressors. So too has one of the groups of feminism.

This is a power tactic and was successfully used while society was being told to ‘be kind’.

The extreme trans activists use emotional manipulation because that is all they have. When you start picking apart the demands and understanding the history, there is no proven science, there are not even really statistics to back up claims.

That is why it is called an ideology. It is based on belief. Belief of self. An individual centred notion. Yet, hypocritically framed as a collective movement because the words tolerance for all hides the fact it is a misogynist movement that doesn’t tolerate the needs of women and girls.

TL/DR - Some people believe the emotionally manipulative tactics of extreme trans activists and wrongly associate feminists seeking to prioritise sex over gender as ‘right wing’.

cravingtoblerone · 21/01/2023 08:23

No I'm pretty sure they're just horrified at the anti-trans posters on here who want to deny their right to exist.

It's the one thing that really, really sucks about Mumsnet.

I have never heard any post of Mumsnet that has suggested trans people don't have the right to exist. Unlike many of the hardcore TRAs, posters here do not threaten or advocate violence.

I have, however, read many many forums on the internet where TRAs have made death threats, and threats or rape and other forms of sexual violence against women who have challenged TRAs views.

And yet we are the problem apparently...

Shut up women and do as you are told....

Helleofabore · 21/01/2023 08:47

There is a chilling effect though to the repetition of ‘anti-trans’ and ‘transphobia is a problem on Mumsnet’. Whether the posters intend to or not, it really does act as a mechanism to silence women through shaming them.

Shut up women and do as you are told....

Shut up women and just be kind…

That is the direct effect of using ‘anti-trans’ and ‘transphobia on Mumsnet’ in posts.

MarshaBradyo · 21/01/2023 08:52

cravingtoblerone · 21/01/2023 08:23

No I'm pretty sure they're just horrified at the anti-trans posters on here who want to deny their right to exist.

It's the one thing that really, really sucks about Mumsnet.

I have never heard any post of Mumsnet that has suggested trans people don't have the right to exist. Unlike many of the hardcore TRAs, posters here do not threaten or advocate violence.

I have, however, read many many forums on the internet where TRAs have made death threats, and threats or rape and other forms of sexual violence against women who have challenged TRAs views.

And yet we are the problem apparently...

Shut up women and do as you are told....

I agree. Also those who repeat anti trans or think women are saying trans women should’t exist aren’t really reading posts.

nilsmousehammer · 21/01/2023 08:54

No I'm pretty sure they're just horrified at the anti-trans posters on here who want to deny their right to exist.

😂

Have a read around. I'll think you'll find that what is meant by 'anti-trans' is 'thinks women matter equally', and that they'd quite like as women to be allowed to exist too. With their words. And spaces. And equality of access. And to be allowed a material reality as opposed to agreeing that they are just an idea defined in a male person's head.

This is getting a bit silly now.