To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

@electricdreaming - if you have ever been in a prison for men you would not ask this question. They are frightening places. I admire female prison officers but the harassment and treatment they get from male prisoners in many cases is beyond anything you can imagine. And they can call for help. Mixed prisons and female safety is for the birds.

I would not do their job.

What is always so galling is pretending that they don't have the faintest idea why prisons would ever be sex segregated.

Which is utter bollocks.

I hadn’t considered most of the arguments set out by @FactsAreNotMean (which I appreciate) but obviously thought about, in general, men being larger and more powerful and the risk they would pose to female prisons. But we live with men in wider society so couldn’t come up with a solid argument why mixed sex prisons don’t exist.

Mmm. Okay.

I think you are a troll.

We live with men in wider society, but we (mostly) have choices about whether we live closely with them. We get to decide if we share a home with them, share a room with them, use a toilet in front of them, shower in a room with them. We have at least some opportunity to risk assess and to safeguard ourselves. And despite all of that many women still end up being assaulted and abused.

In prison a woman does not have those choices or opportunities.

<I'm ignoring the TW in women's spaces discussion here as I know that messes with everything!>

Don't tell me you've never met anyone who has ever been raped so you don't believe it exists either.

I’ve been coerced into sex. A lot of my friends have been sexually assaulted or raped. Let’s not shall we?

I was imagining mixed sex but segregated blocks, which I suppose isn’t really mixed sex at all, so I don’t know why that’s what I was imagining. It also doesn’t help the trans women in prisons argument as you couldn’t really put them in a separate block.

You could have them in totally separate wings, but would need to ensure no overlap of things like recreation spaces. There is at least one TW only unit (in Downview) I believe. But that is generally consider unacceptable as most trans rights campaigners are not in favour of anything they consider "othering", such as 3rd spaces.

I don't believe anyone who says that they can't come up with a solid argument why mixed sex prisons don't exist, I mean come on it's basic common sense.

I suppose you can't come up with an argument as to why toilets, changing rooms, refuges, sports, hospital wards, dormitories, etc., etc. are not mixed sex either then? After all we live with men in wider society why don't we just mix everything all the time, let's all have no privacy or dignity away from members of the opposite sex for either sex, I mean why would anyone want that?

You say you can see why women want and should have single sex spaces and services and that women shouldn't have to explain or justify why then come out with that risible statement about mixed sex prisons, so those women have to justify why they don't want to share spaces with male prisoners, hmm. What else is one to take from that other than that you don't give a flying fuck for women who are incarcerated and that you don't consider them worthy of the very basics of humane treatment?

Imprisoned women should have the same right as anyone to say they want single sex spaces. Someone asked me a question about what single sex spaces I’m in favour of - I said I wasn’t sure about prisons. In my head, I was imagining separate cells and living conditions but in the same building/plot of land, maybe mixing for meals or exercise or work? I don’t know. I wasn’t imagining sharing cells and showers. I accept the arguments against these and agree. I should’ve made that clearer. Of course I care about imprisoned women - our prisons are inhumane as is.

It also doesn’t help the trans women in prisons argument as you couldn’t really put them in a separate block.

Why not? Rapists, paedophiles and extremely dangerous prisoners are segregated from the general prison population, there is even a prison in the UK that houses only sex offenders. Separation/segregation within the male prison system is par for the course which is why TW prisoners can and should be housed within the male prison estate.

That’s where the problem arises I suppose, trans women are placed in this other category of women. But I don’t know how there’s any way to protect same sex spaces and give trans women the same access to facilities as biological women. I don’t think it’s fair to put trans women in men’s prisons though. Maybe a separate wing of a men’s or women’s prison is best. But do you then put trans men in the women’s or men’s, and vice versa? I don’t know if it’s worse to have this half an half approach of creating a third category of others, or to define people based only on sex.

I meant that it’s somewhat stigmatising. As you say, sex offenders and dangerous criminals are cordoned off, seems somewhat harsh to tarnish trans people with the same brush. But that’s probably the best way to protect them and everyone else - trans men in a men’s prison are probably more at risk, women with trans women are more vulnerable.

I fully believe that many people have never thought about prison and how they work.

Just like many women will declare that they don’t see the issue with males being incarcerated with females and the potential for harm. I mean, a whole study was done and the negative feedback from female prisons was glossed over. As was the fact that that study identified some males who, surprise, detransitioned on being released.

It sometimes takes having a someone you love spending time I prison to really understand the risks.

That and looking at the situation in the USA where female prisoners are becoming pregnant due to sex (or rape because can you really consent when you are imprisoned and cannot leave).

only then will some people even begin to understand the issues are real. And not the ‘moral panic’ we see mentioned by those who wish to dismiss the topic (and no, I am not talking about ‘electricdreaming’ dismissing the topic.)

In my head, I was imagining separate cells and living conditions but in the same building/plot of land, maybe mixing for meals or exercise or work?

Why?

The figures for prisoners in England and Wales for 2019 were:

79,140 males
3,795 females

How do you possibly think your idea is at all credible?

Maybe every female prisoner could be responsible for rehabilitating 20 men?

sex offenders and dangerous criminals are cordoned off, seems somewhat harsh to tarnish trans people with the same brush

You are aware the majority of trans women prisoners are there for sex offences? They already are tarred with the same brush.

No I wasn’t aware of that, but if we were to put trans people in with sex offenders, then every trans person who committed a non sexual offence would be shoved in with them to.

I don’t think it’s fair to put trans women in men’s prisons though.

The unit I mentioned is actually in a women's prison. But, ignoring that - can you explain why you think it isn't fair to put TW in men's prisons?

The vast majority of TW are full intact males. A large proportion of TW in prison entered prison without trans identities, and there is a disproportionate number of them who are sex offenders compared to both the overall male population and the male prisoner population. Most TW also don't take hormones.

seems somewhat harsh to tarnish trans people with the same brush.

I hate to break it to you but the overwhelming majority of transwomen in prison are in there for sexual offences.

Figures released put the number of trans sexual offender prisoners as high as 41% of the total of trans prisoners, whereas in the male prison population it is 19% of the total of male prisoners.

As far as I can ascertain there are no transmen prisoners and the MOJ has stated that there is no way they would be placed in the male prison estate, wonder why that would be?

No I wasn’t aware of that, but if we were to put trans people in with sex offenders, then every trans person who committed a non sexual offence would be shoved in with them to.

There are easy ways around this that do not involve placing TW in the female prison estate whatever their crime.

Of course political discussion belongs on here, it belong everywhere.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, it should be voiced respectfully and responded to respectfully, that's healthy debate, I think that's where MN struggles with being a respected platform for debate, but the right to debate definitely belongs here,

I think that's where MN struggles with being a respected platform for debate

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Well if you use just those who classify themselves as transwomen against the male ‘trans’ people in prison for sexual offenses the number is 1 in every 585 ‘transwomen’. If you take the wider ‘trans’ group to include NB males it could be 1 in around 1000. It is a much higher rate than for general male population. It is nowhere near the rate of female sex offenders which is miniscule.

It is safe to say there is absolutely no evidence that males who transition have a lower rate of committing sex crime than the rest of the male population. It could be higher.

Why would anyone then allow any post-pubertal male to be in the female estate?

There is witness testimony where female prisoners describe their trauma of having to walk past males showering with erections (where the male prisoners know that those women have to walk past and see). Where they feel they are being followed and watched. Where they know if they report anything they will be reprimanded for transphobia. This was all a witness testimony in court. I am happy to search for it if needed. But this was a UK court and within the past few years.