To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

It’s this constant explaining of myself and the language I use that makes me want to avoid it tbh. When you’ve got multiple posters questioning you like this, it’s quite anxiety inducing. I don’t have all the answers - does anyone? And I do want to learn more from both sides of the debate. But it’s very hard to do that when every word you use is picked apart.

I want to apologise because I have a very sore knee and the sun was in my eyes and in my distraction I pressed the wrong bar. So you can disregard one of those YABU votes, of COURSE political discussion (debate even) belongs anywhere women are.

Very telling that some TRAs seem never to have noticed how politically engaged actual biological women are.

YANBU.

Obv there are people who think women should know their place. How very gendered...

electricdreaming Do you understand that you have accused MN of transphobia, of course referring to the FWR board in your first posts here? Do you think that coming onto any thread on Mumsnet with that tone encourages people to think that you did wish to learn about the issues?

We see this very regularly. Posters coming on to threads and using language that is certainly not neutral and making some negative generalisations that are usually used to shame regular posters. Throwing around 'Mumsnet has a transphobia problem' is just the start. And tone policing. Assuming 'meanness' is based in transphobia rather than either frustration or meanness.

If you use that tone coming onto threads in FWR, then yes, you will receive the same pushback there as you got here.

And again, we see people do that regularly too. Come onto a thread, make shaming remarks and wonder why they get pushback and then they flounce and make out that they were 'just posting' or whatever, and you are all so mean and whatever other shaming posts they can get in before leaving. But they all start off with the first post either signalling that they are somehow morally superior or they are straight out shaming the board.

Would someone go onto the Dog board and announce they hate dogs or that dog owners are shameful in someway and expect to be welcomed and positively engaged with?

By the way, anyone reading who believes that at the very least that discussion around the updating the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex should happen in parliament, please do consider signing this petition.

Particularly in light of the Gender Recognition Reform Act passed by the Scottish government and now subject to pushback from Westminster.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2?page=2&reply=123244330

I have not accused mumsnet of transphobia. I am a mumsnetter, I’m on mumsnet. I do think there is a problem with transphobia and I stand by this. I think the Labour Party had a problem with antisemitism. I’m still a member and a Labour voter. Do I think every mumsnetter is a transphobe? No. Do I think every Labour Party member is an antisemite? No. I never once claimed I was morally superior to anyone. I never said anyone on this thread was a transphobe. There is some mumsnetters who are though, obviously. There’s posts deleted for transphobia - do these posters get banned? Genuine question. I have never gone onto this board or any other and stated I hated women who wanted to protect single sex spaces, GC women, or even said I hated “TERFs”. You’re putting words into my mouth. I’ve said I should’ve come with evidence, that was my mistake. But I have seen transphobia on here. It’s okay if you don’t believe that.

But I have seen transphobia on here. It’s okay if you don’t believe that.

What transphobia have you seen? Can you quote? Genuine question as transphobia is never acceptable.

Though on one thread a poster stated that anything other than transwomen are actual women is transphobic. Nothing was changing her position when pointed out that transwomen are biological men (factually correct).

What transphobia have you seen? Can you quote? Genuine question as transphobia is never acceptable.

We've been round the houses on this quite a few times already and no quotes have been provided or even indications what these posts were about.

Its not a small accusation, I don't think it's very fair to keep stating it in the full knowledge that they've nothing to back it up.

I don’t think that is transphobic, but obviously others do. I’ve said before, not sure if you’ve seen, but I can’t think of any examples and that’s my error. I have seen them, but I didn’t bookmark them, which I probably should’ve done, if I wanted to call transphobia out - I should’ve come with examples. But there are posts deleted on here for transphobia, so it must exist. Do you know if those posters are then banned?

I have never used a poll because I use my phone to access it and that faculty isn't on the app

There’s posts deleted for transphobia - do these posters get banned? Genuine question.

I have no idea, but I doubt it's policy to ban after one deleted post, no matter what it's about.

Unfair for me to keep asking for examples or unfair for posters to keep accusing MN of transphobia without said examples?

unfair for posters to keep accusing MN of transphobia without said examples?

This. Sorry, post was a bit confused.

I don’t think that is transphobic, but obviously others do.

Of course, but if a collective amount of people decided that 2+2 now equals 6, it still doesn't make it true.

"There’s posts deleted for transphobia - do these posters get banned? Genuine question."

Some of them do. Of course they do if they have a history of doing it. But did you understand when I also said to you that people posts transphobic posts on MN just to screenshot it and declare the transphobia on twitter or reddit or on a discord server. There are trolls who have been banned who are doing this. Look at some of the active threads today - you will see some posts with the message 'previously banned poster' or PBP on there as reason for deletion.

I have never gone onto this board or any other and stated I hated women who wanted to protect single sex spaces, GC women, or even said I hated “TERFs”. You’re putting words into my mouth.

I haven't said that at all. I am not putting words into your mouth at all. But I merely posted a suggestion as to why some posters get pushback on their posts and then complain.

For instance, in the Kemi Badenoch thread, you said "generally GC views are seen as right wing". Do you know many or any 'right wing' feminists who believe that sex should be prioritised in the sex based rights and protections for all females? Or is this just an assumption? or were you just repeating trope that you had heard elsewhere? But do you know how many times we get represented as 'right wing'? It is actually quite offensive to be constantly told this.

And yet again. Sure there is 'transphobia' and it gets deleted. To continue your insistence that 'Mumsnet has a transphobia problem' really is either now based on a bad faith take or is over exaggerating an issue that is quickly addressed and therefore like saying 'the Guardian has a transphobia problem because some comments are deleted for transphobia'.

So which is it.

Mumsnet deals with transphobia and so there is not transphobia problem?

Or

You wish to keep saying there is transphobia on Mumsnet for your own reasons and to be able to keep saying 'there is transphobia on Mumsnet'?

Thanks. I'm still going to continue asking for examples in the hope of someone, someday, being able to provide an answer. Holds breath

So maddy68, because you don't use the poll you think that MN should curate the AIBU board to suit your personal tastes?

Even though it is a legitimate discussion and even though there have been lots of posters on these threads that never go to the FWR board but who are still interested in the discussion.

You post regularly on the FWR board. You can just scroll past any topic that you don't wish to engage with and you can even hide threads and probably even boards.

Yet you want to police where threads are started. Why? Why do you want this discussion to not be had on the AIBU board?

I think it's great. By the time someone is making a sign about Mumsnet, you know it means an impact.

The personal is the political, as they say. Even GRR supporters would have to agree.

I take your first point. Obviously when I see transphobia and then later on it’s deleted, I won’t necessarily see the deleted message, so wouldn’t notice it’s a troll poster. Regarding the Kemi thread, I said they were regarded as right wing, I didn’t say they are right wing, if I remember correctly. I think the thread was about why people see her as right wing, and that was a suggestion of mine. I did go on to explain all this - I think most people see the advancement of trans rights as more liberal than defending single sex spaces, whether that’s right or wrong. And no I don’t know how they equate that with feminism which is clearly left wing and progressive. I was offering a possible explanation, not necessarily my own beliefs. It was a long time ago I can’t remember tbh. Mumsnet HQ might well deal with the problem, but the fact that transphobes choose to post here says something. Fair enough if 100% of those posts are trolls. If we compare it to the Labour Party, it’s all well and good saying the Labour Party would clamp down on antisemitism and remove them from the party, but we have to consider why antisemites are associating themselves with the party in the first place? What is it about labour that attracts them? I think we can look at that with mumsnet too.

electricdreaming
It’s this constant explaining of myself and the language I use that makes me want to avoid it tbh.

Well thats rich. You wrote a very odd post asking a lesbian to explain what she meant, after you apparently misread her post.

What post? The one where I asked her to answer some of my questions if she didn’t mind as I didn’t understand it and wanted to see things from another persons point of view?

Its unfair for you to complain about being questioned when you feel ok asking questions.

@NowDoYouBelieveMe you should read a thread recently about how Brendan O’Neill is wonderful and (I’m not even joking) sexy and how he’s given so many women a platform and how the Guardian is evil

Okay 👍🏻

I don't mind at all

I am a lesbian - which makes a difference to me as I would like to go on using female only lesbian groups. I like the experience of being alone with only other females, the dynamic is very different to being in a group where male people are present. I like being with women who share in and can talk about those same experiences, and from the point of view of dating, I'm just not attracted to male people however they present and identify (and am to female people however they present and identify. Although am carefully polite about never mentioning this with a female who prefers to be identified as being a man.) Sadly I've known of several lesbian groups which have moved underground after having initially welcomed male people of different TQ+ identities and tried to make it work, and then found that the ethos and focus of the group changed, and there was pressure placed on women to be accepting of what they perceived as straight sex. As the well known cyclist Veronic Ivy said on Women's Hour: there's an expectation that lesbians should 'learn to cope' with straight sex as a kind of social duty. I am really not ok with that, I think the disrespect and dismissal of homosexulity and identity, and seeing female people as if they shouldn't expect to enjoy sex but just provide it, really quite disturbing and dehumanising. On FWR there's quite a few threads on this with one well known poster who has talked very articulately on this, having initially found it didn't happen in her circles which made her doubtful it happened at all, and then explaining her discovery that yes, it did, and it was a real difficulty for some women. Which tended to be dismissed and minimised on a sex based hierarchical basis, on the grounds of aggravating the difficulties of male people disliking those women sharing their boundaries.

My need for single sex spaces is in addition to this, and obviously it's deeply private information that women shouldn't be expected to disclose or put up for discussion as to whether or not it's ok for them to say they have a boundary and cannot do it. However many of the women who need single sex spaces to be able to access include those traumatised through DV/DA/CSA, women with PTSD, women with Autism, (a number of MNetters have spoken very well on this if you want to read more), women with dementia, women with physical disabilities, women of different beliefs and cultures that they cannot just get over or escape as sometimes is rather naively suggested, and women who need privacy and dignity and will not ever be able to put the needs of a male person above their own needs in a space where they feel vulnerable. (And a bit questionable about why the male person should expect this from them without reciprocity of inclusiveness, compassion and social understanding that people's lives are complicated.)

I don't feel that just excluding these women from women's spaces does anything positive really. We currently having women who can't use refuges or rape crisis services (two MNetters have posted with long term stories about what they've endured trying to manage around this) and women unable to use the women only swims that were their escape. This isn't really ok.