To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

"If we compare it to the Labour Party, it’s all well and good saying the Labour Party would clamp down on antisemitism and remove them from the party, but we have to consider why antisemites are associating themselves with the party in the first place? What is it about labour that attracts them? I think we can look at that with mumsnet too."

No. Because this is a bad faith take.

If the Labour Party removes anti-semites from the Labour Party and there is no anti-semite activity, do you then go around and say 'the Labour Party has an anti-semitism problem'?

Why on earth do you wish to continue to portray Mumsnet as having a 'transphobia problem' when it is deleted.

What attracts trolls to post transphobic content on Mumsnet? Seriously? What attracts any poster to post abhorrent content on any site? And particularly a site that is seen to host discussions that some people in this world are infuriated that they cannot shut down?

And there is such a wide range of posters on Mumsnet. Yet you persist in saying 'there is a transphobia problem on Mumsnet'. Despite admitting that it gets deleted and that it has a high possibility that it is trolls.

Go for it. You obviously have your own personal reasons for doing so. But at least expect that posters will continue to challenge you on this. Because to leave it unaddressed, merely adds another voice to the misrepresentation that 'Mumsnet has a transphobia problem'.

Moving on electricdreaming what do you then think about female sports? Males being put into female prison estates? Females not being able to access female only health care provision for intimate procedures?

What about young people being given lesser care because lobby groups have put so much pressure on clinicians to provide affirming only care and not even following the Dutch Protocol properly which was for plenty of exploratory therapy before any treatment (that protocol has been until recently touted to be the best practice)?

What about young males who have asked to be accommodated in with the female students on school away trips? Are you comfortable with this? Do you think that female young transitioners should be accommodated in with male students? Do you think that young people with trans identities should accept lower safeguarding than the rest of their age group?

There are so many aspects to this discussion. the impacts are very wide ranging. You might well find that you agree with posters on some more issues than you think.

the fact that transphobes choose to post here says something. Fair enough if 100% of those posts are trolls. If we compare it to the Labour Party, it’s all well and good saying the Labour Party would clamp down on antisemitism and remove them from the party, but we have to consider why antisemites are associating themselves with the party in the first place? What is it about labour that attracts them? I think we can look at that with mumsnet too.

Women are often deleted - you can easily find on twitter the group of TQ+ activists, the most vocal ones seem to be male, who police FWR and report with a lot of enthusiasm any woman or any post they feel is unacceptable.

Women have been deleted, given 'strikes' (three and you're banned) and banned outright for offenses including:

Correctly naming a person's sex
using a wrong pronoun
Using the term 'male' too much
referring to research that is disliked - I cannot name specifically on what, it would be deleted, and some words are autosearched for and blocked: however to discuss women and children's needs in the context of mixed sex spaces this is important
referring to a named individual
referring too specifically to surgical procedures
using terms that are accurate but disliked (some of this is supposed to be reciprocal, for example not permitting 'cis' and 'terf' for balance, but it's rarer for this to go.
I was once deleted for commenting that LGBT+ had become 'alphabet soup'.

This is all considered 'transphobia' or breaking guidelines for civil discussion by making the board an unsafe place for TQ+ posters.

I have also seen how TQ+ activist posters have spoken to TQ+ MNetters who dared to say they had a different experience and believed that women's needs needed to be given equal care and respect. 'Uncle Tom' was the kindest, but I have never seen that degree of viciousness even on AIBU. FWR is strictly policed and a good deal politer.

I have also seen TQ+ activists post something rampantly transphobic, and immediately screenshot it to put on Twitter as 'evidence' of 'Oh God look how vile they are on MN'. HQ delete it in minutes, but it's done in seconds. When the evidence has to actually be artificially manufactured because of lack of it, you have to wonder.

It has been helped somewhat since the Maya Forstater judgement which did set out in law that women were entitled not to believe in genderism and to believe instead in biological sex, and express this.

It's also no real surprise that the biggest women's forum in the UK where there is such a weight of women of all walks of life would be where women talk about the issues affecting them and their lives, and try to raise awareness in other women. There is a feeling (expressed in the poster) that nice women just wouldn't talk about it at all, but I think that's a rather sexist view. The main reason people would prefer women not to talk about it, and share evidence, and raise awareness, is because people then see the effect on women's lives and the unfairness and exclusionary aspect of this kind of inclusion, and it's devastating to the TQ+ political lobby's case.

Many of the leading lights of whom incidentally are not themselves TQ+.

Thank you for taking the time to write this - “think the disrespect and dismissal of homosexulity and identity, and seeing female people as if they shouldn't expect to enjoy sex but just provide it, really quite disturbing and dehumanising.” Agree 1000% with this. The FWR threads with the well known poster, do you happen to know their username so I could search for their threads? Will also read up on the women with autism needing single sex spaces. Do you feel like trans women in your female only social groups change the dynamic because they don’t share the same experiences of having a female body and/or the experience that comes with that, or is it that they aren’t lesbians so don’t share the same experience of that? I’ve never really considered it before but I don’t think I do consider a trans woman a lesbian (which isn’t something I thought I’d think). I suppose that being a lesbian is very unique and if you aren’t one, you don’t share the same experiences and it can change the dynamic in a group of women who otherwise are all lesbians. I really appreciate you explaining this and not dismissing me and my questions. It’s really helpful.

If the Labour Party removes anti-semites from the Labour Party and there is no anti-semite activity, do you then go around and say 'the Labour Party has an anti-semitism problem'? - I think I probably would actually yes. It would depend on the volume and longevity of it. I think an investigation would need to be done on why there was anti-Semitic members in the first place. I don’t have an agenda. I love mumsnet. I don’t want it to be transphobic - why would I want that? Maybe trolls want to shut down female discussion, I don’t know. It’s interesting to consider anyway.

Yes I think I probably do agree with more than I expect. As I’ve said, I’m not particularly bothered about single sex spaces, but I do recognise why others want them. I don’t think trans people should be in their preferred gender category, I think they should be in their biological sex. Prison, I’m not sure. I don’t know if I could argue why prison is segregated by sex anyway. Obviously putting rapists in a female prison is a problem, but then they also post a problem in male prisons too. And male prison officers are a threat to female prisoners. Regarding the Dutch Protocol point, I know nothing about that and would need to read up significantly more on said lobby groups and the fact that young people aren’t receiving proper care. With school trips, again I’m not sure. Would need to consider it more in depth.

"Maybe trolls want to shut down female discussion, I don’t know. It’s interesting to consider anyway."

Yes. Trolls want to shut down female discussion. It is no surprise though.

There are many motivations. Mens rights activists are often posting or starting threads on the FWR board. Extreme trans activists too and they are amongst the regular posters.

Note that I said 'extreme' too. Because, of course, not all trans activism is 'extreme' in demanding that they get their own way and that any person who disagrees is a bigot. There are many very reasonable trans people who simply want to find equitable solutions that don't impact on the rights and protections already established for women and girls. We know this. There are numerous trans people that have posted here and on twitter just to say this and to have reasonable discussions.

And I am all for trans people campaigning for their own needs. I am sure many people on the FWR board are. However, it cannot come at a cost to the needs of the female half of the population and solutions that are equitable need to be found. For every conflicting area. Every single one.

Part of the history around prisons just very quickly:

www.elizabethfry.co.uk/History

www.un.org/en/events/mandeladay/mandela_rules.shtml

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangkok_Rules

"There are numerous trans people that have posted here"

I just want to make one point about this though. Quite often those trans people who come and interact with respect are female transitioners. Too often males come simply to shame women who disagree with them, using those techniques of emotional manipulation, name calling and any attempt to shut down discussion. Not all, of course.

@electricdreaming I've enjoyed reading your later posts, thank you.

I wouldn't out her without permission but if you advance search the themes you'll find a lot of interesting discussion.

The groups that have had to disband and then go underground and meet off the radar to be allowed to continue to be female only have often had to do so because unfortunately the behaviour of some of the male people invited to join tended to end the group providing what it previously had for the female people enjoying it, and because of the political perspectives and political focus that tended to be expected to be the central focus. It was not unlike when a male person with a TQ+ chosen identity became a women's officer in a Labour group, and then explained to the women they represented that they would not represent or even discuss issues that did not affect male people with TQ+ identities, because to do so was transphobic and implied that being a woman had a biological component.

Up to that point I'd have been entirely open minded as to how they would represent women. Unfortunately they didn't see it as an opportunity to represent all women and address women's needs, but instead as an opportunity to take and refocus a women's resource to male people with TQ+ identities and use it as a platform. I've found from my own experience and listening to other women that this isn't an uncommon thing at all. The head of one of the Rape Crisis services in Scotland is a male with a TQ+ chosen identity (I tend to say that when I am not entirely sure which one) is currently using their post in a very similar way and not only speaks against any inclusion of or provision for traumatised women reliant on a female only space for access, but uses their political power to attempt to make this standard policy.

electricdreaming Just to note. I have overheard some concerning conversations between 14/15 year old lesbians who convince their friends that to reject transdick is transphobic and hateful.

There have been lesbians who post in threads that 'no one is telling lesbians that they have to accept males as sex partners'. But this is actually not quite true.

These young lesbians were taking this all on board and telling each other. They are shaped by this harmful narrative. I know I am not alone in discovering this.

"The head of one of the Rape Crisis services in Scotland is a male with a TQ+ chosen identity (I tend to say that when I am not entirely sure which one) is currently using their post in a very similar way and not only speaks against any inclusion of or provision for traumatised women reliant on a female only space for access, but uses their political power to attempt to make this standard policy."

Maybe this would be a good article to start with for those unfamiliar with this male. There are numerous threads about them. Starting from their earlier interviews where they were very proud that they passed as an American woman at the call centre (approving or denying food stamps for women and their families in America in need) they worked in and talked about their power to deny or to grant women in America the opportunity to feed their family. Like it was a power trip for them. Covering many other aspects of their work to this significant interview that this article refers to.

thecritic.co.uk/reframe-your-trauma/

I was on my way to peaking before this, but let's just say that coming across the utterings of Mridul Wadhwa completely and utterly finished the job.

Same. How anyone can accept 'reframe your trauma' is beyond me.

“Unfortunately they didn't see it as an opportunity to represent all women and address women's needs, but instead as an opportunity to take and refocus a women's resource to male people with TQ+ identities and use it as a platform.”

This pattern has been repeated time and again with males taking ‘women’s officer’ roles at universities and in political parties.

And there seems a number of transitioned males who are very interested in period poverty, working with prostitutes and campaigning for abortion rights in Scotland. And when they do, it becomes about them and being seen doing this for their political aspirations rather than about those needing the services.

Same. How anyone can accept 'reframe your trauma' is beyond me.

Its just sickening.

This is what lesbian erasure looks like. Is it acceptable for this person to go into schools and tell teenagers they are a lesbian?

@nilsmousehammer you are your usual patient and considerate self answering @electricdreaming's questions, my question to you @electricdreaming is why should women, any woman, have to explain and justify to you or anyone else why they do not want to share single sex segregated spaces, services, prisons, refuges, sports et al with those born male? Why? Do men have to justify themselves when they want to keep their men only clubs, or the rule of primogeniture relating to inheriting titles?

It makes me extremely cross that women are being expected to do this and then get told they are either weaponinising their trauma or told to reframe their trauma or told to cope with sex with males if they are lesbian. Frankly anyone who supports or condones this hates women to an unimaginable level.

Why is it not just acceptable for women to say 'NO'? Why do women have to justify and explain the reasons why they do not consent? Why is I don't want to not good enough?

Prison, I’m not sure. I don’t know if I could argue why prison is segregated by sex anyway.

I find this an absolutely jaw dropping comment from you @electricdreaming. Do you think women in prison are not entitled to the basic consideration of a degree of privacy and dignity. The punishment is removal of liberty not dehumanisation.

Obviously putting rapists in a female prison is a problem, but then they also post a problem in male prisons too.

No shit Sherlock, offering up incarcerated women as potential further victims is particularly repellent, or do you think women prisoners should have the possibility of being raped or sexually assaulted added onto their sentences?

Rapists in the male prison estate are hardly a major problem - the male prison estate it is well used to managing rapists and paedophiles.

And male prison officers are a threat to female prisoners.

They could certainly be, so why add to the problem by including male rapists in there as well? Or are these women prisoners in your view so beneath you you are happy to see them being used and abused as collateral damage?

And male prison officers are a threat to female prisoners.

I've seen this point made before to justify putting TW in women's prisons and I am taken aback by it every time.

I mean, sure, they might be.

But really, you can't see a difference between officers which can be vetted, monitored and fired if necessary and prisoners who we know are capable of criminal behaviour?

And even given that, you can justify making women less safe than they are currently?

I'm honestly shocked at this view. But it's only now I'm realising how little people care about incarcerated women. They really are the lowest of the low in society's eyes.

They shouldn’t have to justify it - I asked if @nilsmousehammer would mind explaining it to me. I’ve also said multiple times I understand wanting single sex spaces, I’ve just always understood it on the basis of sex rather than sexuality, so it’s interesting to see it from that viewpoint. Regarding prisons, my comment was that I don’t know why prisons are segregated in the first place, so I couldn’t argue why trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons - ie I don’t know enough about the issue to make a case, not that I think it’s a bad thing. Of course I don’t hate prisoners. How do you know I’ve never been imprisoned? It’s disgusting that you would suggest I condone rape or sexual assault. That’s so low it’s unreal. Nobody should ever experience that. I’ve experienced that. I think our prisons don’t allow prisoners any degree of liberty and dignity as they are, regardless of whether they’re mixed sex.

That’s so low it’s unreal.

I don't think it's a low thing to conclude. The way in which you said 'oh aren't they at risk from guards anyway' seemed awfully blasé to me.

Just to be clear, you're not alone in seemingly giving no shits about the safety of female prisoners. It is, unfortunately very common. Driven by the absolute confidence that you'll never be one I expect.

Well if that’s the way it came across, then I apologise. But the sad fact of life is that women are at risk from men everywhere. It’s bleak. Which is why, as I’ve said multiple times, wanting single sex spaces is perfectly reasonable.

Rhona Hotchkiss is a former governor of a female prison in Scotland and speaks very well on this topic - might be worth a look

Off the top of my head, some reasons for segregating:

• Males are on average larger, heavier and significantly physically stronger than females. A female is far more likely to be significantly harmed being assaulted by a male compared to an equivalent assault by a female
• An extremely high proportion of women in prison have been previous victims of domestic or sexual abuse (or both). They are therefore more likely to be afraid of men than the "average" woman (who has plenty or reason for fear anyway).
• Risk of voluntary sexual relationships; do we really want lots of prison babies being born? (Yes, I know we have some already, the vast majority to women who were pregnant before being incarcerated)
• Risk of sexual abuse, sexual assault and rape, with potentially significant physical and emotional consequences. Yes, men can rape other men but a) the male prison estate has facilities for sex offenders and b) men cannot get pregnant. It's grim, but it's not the same. There's also not the same size/power inbalance
• Basic dignity - shared cells etc is bad enough, would you like to have to use the toilet completely exposed in front of a male cellmate, for example?
• Sheer numbers; there are far far more male prisoners than women. In a shared prison environment the female to male ratio would be such that assaults and rapes would be almost inevitable.

Prison guards are vetted professionals; there have undoubtedly been cases of abuse in spite of that, but it's hardly comparable to locking women up with known, convicted sex offenders.