Is it time the parents were punished as well when their teenagers murder people.

[dottypotter]

A youth has been found guilty today of stabbing a 53 year old man outside a supermarket in Redditch. Ian Kirwin.
The teenage gang had gone out looking for trouble and stabbed this man after he challenged them about their bad behaviour in a supermarket toilet where they had urinated on the floor and banged loudly on his cubicle door.
When is this thuggish and horrible behaviour going to end?

Isn't it time the parents of these feral teenagers were held to account now?
How can it be nothing to do with them when their offspring are out with knives?
Does anything ever happen to parents of these teenagers?
What happens to other children they may have are they taken away from them?

Aren't they bloody embarrassed that they have raised little shits?
Boils my piss. Nothing ever changes.
You can't even name the teenagers, everything's on the yobbos side?
Isn't it time we asked about the parents and held them partly responsible.
How will it change otherwise?

I’m getting real tired of seeing this populist, over simplistic rhetoric on here recently. All this “lock people up throw away the key”, “they just need stricter parents”, “you wouldn’t say that if it was your kid” “I’d tear them limb from limb” etc etc.

Take 5 or 10 minutes out of your bubble to learn about the effects of poverty, lack of access to education and opportunities, poor housing etc has on humans. To look at the many studies into the causes of crime and effective criminal justice systems (hint rehabilitation works best).

If society’s problems where that simple, we’d have solved them all by now.

Umm no. I was an awful teen it wasn't my mums fault at all. On the contrary I ended up with a very chilled teen who is no bother. Purely luck I couldn't have handled him if he was like me as a teen.

The other thing actually is why does everyone think this is a new or increasing problem? Violent crime (including murder) has been on a decreasing trend for decades. If it's all about parenting you'd argue that the old ways led to more violence.

My ds has never hurt anyone.

In fact he was the victim of knife crime as he was threatened with a knife (in school!)

Both my ds and perpetrator have ASD. Both were struggling and both struggled afterwards.

Both of us sets of parents had been calling for help for our children prior to this event with no avail.

You can do everything as a parent but if you are grey rocked by the professional services who have the experience and training to support these young people you are stuck. You physically cannot stop a teenager from leaving the house.

I don't condone it and it's heinous crimes happening everyday. But in some cases the parents really have tried and will already be suffering being the parent of the murderer and will be more punished by that than anything else.

Another punishment fetishist thread on Mumsnet... 🙄

Support parents. Fund education, mental health, social care, the police and provision for SEN. Then when you can prove that the parents in question have done absolutely nothing to get help for their teens, sure.

An ounce of prevention is always better than a pound of cure.

Great idea OP! But why stop at the parents? Kill ‘em all!

Often it’s the parents that are the victims. This article shows what happens when parents (mothers) ask for help with their violent offspring: amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/15/women-killed-by-sons-violence-children-parents-britain-abuse

Early intervention is the key. I'm currently watching a little boy (just 6) be massively failed by services. He's had all of his baby teeth removed because of neglect. He's
Repeating disturbing things he's seeing in the 18 horror films he watches. He barely goes to school etc etc. They have family support who just give the Mother more money to prop the house up. Intervention levels have been scaled right back. He's going nowhere, she doesn't care, whatever makes her life easier. She's had another baby, now nearly 2 who has been covered in bruises and showing signs of neglect, but the Court is allowing her to keep her biological father out of her life. He works, has another older child who he's a good Dad to. She leaves both children with whoever she meets off the dating websites she's on. Family support know this. Yes parents can be to blame, but the system, underfunding etc has let them down first.

@pointythings - right! There have been a few recently with the same rhetoric. It’s really unpleasant.

I think it depends on how much they acknowledge the behaviour. I had been round to the mothers house of a girl who had bullied my daughter for 3 years, she either refused to answer or on 2 occasions she called the police on me saying I was "harrassing her". By banging on her door .
^
Eventually her daughter assaulted my daughter so badly that she put her in hospital. My daughters victim impact statement read out in court mentioned how many times I had been in to school, round to the mums house, rang and text the mum. When passing sentencing the judge was very damning of the mother and her failure to act. He didn't say much, but it was enough for me to be satisfied that he apportioned some of the blame on her.^

DS is adopted from (of course) a hideously abusive background. Between the ages of 12-20, he could easily have killed someone. He didn't due to my constant vigilance. Literally never leaving him alone, driving constantly in circles round the school to see he didn't escape. But he would have liked to and could have done.
I'm buggered if I'm being held responsible for his actions. These dangerous kids are dangerous for a reason, which is often due to abused,and not from the parents.

Idiot

Generally, the parents are as bad. This sort of behaviour doesn't come from nowhere.

And dic serv offered us no help whatsoever

The daily fail readers are out in force tonight!

Social services

One of the most fucking stupid things I've read today and I've been on Tattle Life. 😉

I started to reply seriously but if someone really has this view I'm not sure it's worth it.

YABVU.

If only it were that simple. Most parents will have been begging for help. Amongst a plethora of other factors.

I was a horrendous teenager and nothing my pares by could have said or done would have stopped me.

I'm convinced a lot of the issues with anti social behaviour and mental health stem from the fact most families need 2, full time incomes to survive these days meaning a lot of teens just aren't getting the support and supervision they need ........most will be fine with that, but a minority will struggle with the lack of guidance and be out getting up to all sorts of shit and their parents will either be oblivious or tearing their hair out trying to get them help which just doesn't exist.

I bet if you looked into the background of most of these teen murderers they would have similar backgrounds such as; poor attendance to school, family breakdown, nowhere to go at night, easily led (due to the above) and low household incomes. I bet the majority are like this. You rarely hear of a MC teen stabbing someone else.

With that, therein lies your answer. I don't think you can blame the parents if our society has badly let down these young men and the only options available to them are to be disruptive and cause trouble. I say this as a person with very conservative views too.

Half the parents of these youths are shit scared of their own kids
The kids won’t respect the parents as it is, punishing people who’ve probably suffered enough at the hands of their child won’t do anything imo

‘Minors’ means under ten years old when the crime was committed - that’s the age of criminal responsibility in the UK. You can’t simply lay the blame at the door of the parents because there are so many contributing factors to criminal behaviour.

Bump

We are so soft, we don't seem to be able to get a handle on anything?

Telling a 15 year old that it's their parents' fault they just stabbed someone doesn't sound like an answer to being too soft on people - it's only going to encourage people to blame others for their own behaviour.

You are just advocating for more women being in prison.

In the same way there are twice as many women in prison for children no attending school as there are men

Children have two parents but frequently the men walk away and the women are left holding all the blame

So as many of these teen stabbings etc are carried out by boys, you are advocating for women being imprisoned for male violence. Like that's not predictable