To put up with him to see kids 100% time

[Nevisonspad]

NC, been around a while. Looking for some support/advice please.

Been with husband over 20 years, married for 10. 2 DC, 8 and 5. Since children came along, he’s been increasingly emotionally abusive. Big cycles where he doesn’t speak to me for many weeks other than to shout that I’m a vile and nasty person. I used to argue but now I barely engage. No trigger, no rationale, he just goes into a mood and it lasts like this for weeks. I try to minimise the impact on the kids by staying cheerful and eventually he comes out of it and we’re ‘normal’ for a while, then he starts calling me a nasty piece of work again. Kids seem happy enough though I know it will have an effect on them and I hate that this demonstrates a ‘relationship’ to them. He only shouts this stuff at me, not at the kids.

No affairs or anything that I know of on either side. He’s had some big stresses in his family over the years whereas my family is tight-knit. His dad was a serial adulterer and alcoholic but they kept up appearances until his parents eventually divorced quite recently. ‘D’H hasn’t I think dealt with this, puts his dad on a pedestal and claims I have a problematic relationship with my family, which I don’t. He doesn’t have an alcohol problem and apart from all the shit he gives me is otherwise a good dad.

The years go by and at least a third of the year he isn’t speaking to me. Obviously I would have left him years ago, but I don’t want to see the kids only half the time, which is what would happen I think if I divorce him. I know it’s crap for the kids to see him shouting at me but most of the time it’s the silent treatment and I try to minimise it to the kids by just saying dad is grumpy again. (I know the silent treatment they see him giving me is also damaging, but it seems better than constant blazing rows). I’m financially ok, work full-time.

My plan is to leave when my younger one leaves home, and until then put up with it in order to see the kids 100% of the time rather than 50/50. Once they have flown the nest there is nothing keeping me here, as he knows. The ‘down’ bit of the cycle where he ignores me and shouts at me has grown longer over the years so that it makes up a bigger proportion of the year, but otherwise it hasn’t gotten worse - nothing physical.

I have a sense of humour and I’m not depressed. I’m busy with work and kids and have family and some friends, though never enough time to see friends. My closest friend knows the situation and agrees with my plan to put up with him until the youngest leaves home, then leave. I don’t act as a doormat around my ‘D’H, I avoid him as much as possible when he’s abusive.

My AIBU is can I put up with him for the next 13 years (say) to see the kids 100% of time? I’ve gotten very close to leaving at points, even engaged a solicitor, but I can’t bring myself to do anything which means I can’t live with the kids 100% of the time. On mumsnet I see lots of people saying LTB under many scenarios. I’m not physically abused, and I’m strong enough and with enough family and friend support that his emotional abuse doesn’t hurt me other than for me to think what an entitled pillock he is to impinge his moods on my and my children’s lives like this. I think there must be lots of people on mumsnet who have made this same bargain with themselves - put up with crap from their ‘D’H so as to live with their kids 100% time. Or is it somehow impossible to do so and everyone ends up leaving before the kids have left home?

Obviously he could leave me, in which case the choice is made for me. I don’t hate him, and I’m happy in myself, but the love I had for him has really ebbed away and I imagine myself single when the kids have flown. Posting now as yet again we’re 3 weeks into a ‘down’ cycle (started just after a genuinely happy Christmas) and I’m fed up with him impinging his moods on me and the kids. We’ve been to counselling, didn’t change anything.

Thanks for reading this.

AIBU - leave him, even if it means kids shared 50/50

YANBU - it’s not really getting worse, even if it is crap, so it’s reasonable to stay to see the kids 100% time.

And to add to my post, one of my siblings has ended up in an IDENTICAL relationship to my mother with an emotionally abusive man. And guess what, she also stays “for the sake of her kids”. She also plans to leave when the youngest goes to uni. The rest of the family know that the damage has already been done to those kids.

You are absolutely unreasonable to yourself and your kids to stay in this horrible toxic atmosphere. Please please please leave.

Sorry I know it goes against the grain. But my mother left my emotionally abusive dad as a child and I was sent to stay with him weekends and during the week - not quite 50/50. I had no choice, courts were involved. However I felt abandoned by my mother and having to deal with my dad alone as a child was extremely damaging to me. I also had to witness him carry on this pattern with his new partner so it wasn't as if I had a healthy new example of how a relationship should work. Only you can have an idea of what it would be like for your children without you. In my mother's case it was a relief to not be around him and she protected herself but it wasn't a relief for us as children.

Hi OP,

I am so sorry this is happening to you. I was in the same situation during the first lockdown and I was very worried about the effect it would have on my DD. I tried to avoid him at all times as I didn’t want my DD to witness such abuse.
Just like you, at the beginning I put up with all his shouting at me, him being extremely unpleasant (he started being physical as well, he would have shoved me if I disagreed on something). I did speak to him, tried to explain it was very bad for our DD and asked him to refrain from speaking to me until the lockdown was over. As soon as lockdown was over- we parted.

You should be very worried, this sort of thing increases in frequency and then becomes physical.

You are right, it is very difficult seeing your kids only half the time and I was very surprised he would want to (and I believe he did it to hurt me), but now things are much better as he’s got someone new in his life, he is busy with the new partner, so he started letting me see my DD more than half the time and he is being more flexible.

Best of luck! Either way, it is not going to be easy and you will need all the strength you can master but as others pointed out, the children will suffer in the long term and will believe that sort of toxic environment is a norm, and it’s not. They will have difficulties forming healthy relationships on their own.

Also things can escalate very quickly! From mental, emotional and/or verbal abuse it can escalate quickly to physical abuse.

It is really sad that people change! I certainly wouldn’t have formed any kind of a relationship with someone abusive! (Let alone have had a child with such person). I am gutted but things like that happen all the time. It’s more common than you would think and it’s not your fault.

You have to leave. Your children are being affected.

record everything he is saying. Fight for better custody. He might not want 50/50. The children might also not want to see him long before they are 18 which could be taken in to account

Sometimes there's no good options when you have a dad like this. Lots of mothers swear that it's so much better after the separation when in reality as a child you are just dealing with it alone without the safety of the reasonable parent, it's not always better for the child.

You need to put your children's needs before your own. They need to be away from this abuse, because they are experiencing abuse. My father experienced something similar and wouldn't wish his childhood on anyone. That is more important than whether you get to see them 100% of the time.

Why do you think it would be 50/50?

He's not a good dad. This isn't how good dad's behave.

Sorry, it sounds really difficult.

My Mum stayed with my Father “for the kids”.
Please don’t, it was awful and I also feel guilty that she put up with his nonsense for so long due to me and my brother .
If she had left our lives would have been much better and I probably would have had a better relationship with my father as well instead of ending up NC with him and not going to his funeral

Hi,

You are getting a lot of great advice here and I agree with the posted saying how this relationship with effect your children and I know I made my decision to leave based on this and for the right reasons

however

I have 50/50, set up by me because it was fair on my children to have equal access to both parents… it kills me everyday. I know I need some support for my emotions around missing kids and it what I am working on this year

make sure if you choose to leave that too put good practices and have support for when the kids are not there, I wish I did as it has not gotten easier in four years.

hope that helps!

Your kids will think this is what normal relationships are like and go on to repeat the cycle.

I'd start be asking him to attend relationship counselling with you. If he won't go then go yourself.

Have some self respect and leave him.

Your kids will very soon pick up on this, if they haven't already, and it will be a miserable life for them too.

You were with him 12 years before bringing children into this environment, why?!

You are being unreasonable if for no other reason than you are setting an example for your kids future relationships. Do you want this for them as adults? For some reason many people only see their relationship with their spouse as affecting themselves, no thought for how it affects the kids now and in the future.

I’m sorry, that sounded so harsh! I’m in a hurry and just wanted to get the point out, as I’m sure everything else has probably been covered by now! Good luck with whatever you decide to do xx

Volhhg, I have a lot of sympathy for your position. I did leave and I do feel guilty that my dd did face emotional abuse from her father during the court-ordered contact. I did go back to court to get it reduced but it's horrible that she was exposed to his behaviour. I still think it was better for her to be out of that situation most of the time, though not all, but your perspective is entirely legitimate and I'm sorry you experienced that.

I grew up in a similar environment and I have never, ever forgiven my mother for not leaving him. I doubt he would go for 50:50 anyway. As an added bonus, because of my upbringing, I sought out emotionally and psychologically abusive relationships during early adulthood because that was what felt "normal" to me, which caused my a huge amount of additional trauma. Please leave.

@Nevisonspad I have a friend in a similar relationship to yours. She looked down on me for divorcing my ex many years ago, because my marriage wasn’t that bad compared to hers (her words not mine!). She felt I was wrong to upset my DC and have less money as a single parent. I ignored her and moved on with my life. I met and married my lovely DH a long time ago, while she’s still in her crappy relationship with her moody, emotionally abusive husband. Her DC are adults now and one of them has a dangerous eating disorder combined with GAD. None of her DC has managed to have a lasting relationship.

Your DCs are stuck with their father 100% of the time at the moment. 50-50 would be better, but they will be able to refuse to see him by around 12 or 13. You are fooling yourself by thinking that by you being overly cheerful makes up for his abuse. The DC are being damaged while you stay with him as no child should ever hear their father bullying and belittling their mother.

You need to make plans to leave.

@Booktime pretty much the same reason I accepted it, although I believe the main reason her dad insisted on 50-50 arrangement was to hurt me and also that way he didn’t have to pay maintenance.
I struggled so much in the first year but I’ve learnt to see positives and find ‘silver lining’. Positives for children : children still need both parents and get to keep their fathers in their lives. For you: You get some valuable time off and can concentrate on your career, social life, hobbies etc It’s very important you get some time off.
@Nevisonspad the sooner you end it, the sooner you move onto your new chapter/ new start/ new life, while you are still young. It really takes time (at least 2-3 years) to settle into new life.

Why do you think he will go for 50/50? How sure are you that he will want to see the kids much if at all?

My own childhood was spent in my (divorced) parents' homes. They had both remarried but neither new marriage was particularly harmonious - lots of bickering and put-downs. This affected my own relationship badly in the early years, because I literally had NO idea what a happy, good partnership looked like, and had no faith in one lasting. If things had been different, my life would have been very different; I might have had children, for one thing.

Please don't do this to your children.

I grew up in a similar environment and myself and my three siblings have an exceptionally strained relationship with our mother as a result, two of my siblings being extremely low contact. You'd be surprised the long term damage it can do to a child. I got stuck in similar relationship cycles and one of my sister's still is, albeit is working her way to getting out through therapy.

Not wanting to have to split custody is actually extremely selfish, you're thinking about what you want instead of considering what might actually be best for your children.

I think the main issue is a practical one: you say you'd leave when youngest leaves home. Usually kids leave home to go to uni. It's a time of huge change and flux for them. Chuck a sudden divorce in there, one that makes it so obvious you were only staying 'for them' - confusion, destabilisation, guilt, shame, fear - not things a fresher needs to be dealing with. Also kids nowadays boomerang, they will need to come home in the holidays and more than likely for some years after graduating, so then you'll just have the same issue. There is no 'good time' for your parents to divorce. It will always destabilise them. You can't avoid that unless you're willing to knuckle under for the rest of your lives.

You say he is a good dad apart from the shitty way he treats you. So what is your concern about them spending 50% of their time with him? If it is simply that you'll miss them, then sorry that is selfish and wrong. You're an adult, they are children, their needs are the priority here.

If it is the disruption to them (two homes, living out of a suitcase, having to deal with step/half siblings coming along) - then that is all fair enough. Do you have the funds to consider a 'nesting' arrangement? Or are your normal childcare practises such that you could make a case that you are the primary carer and bid for a larger share of custody? You should really talk to a solicitor about this - 50:50 is the default assumption assuming all equal between the parents, but in practice it is very unusual, either because the distribution of parenting responsibilities is so skewed it makes it impossible/not in the children's interest, or because the dad frankly can't be bothered. What's his approach currently to splitting the load?

Have you ever talked about what you would both want from a split (I can't believe your relationship has been so bad for so long, that you've had counselling etc and this conversation has never been had) are you sure he would WANT 50:50? I think a lot of men say this simply because they dislike the idea of 'giving the ex money' - potentially if you reassure him you don't want child support paid to you, come to an arrangement where he instead pays for big ticket items directly for the kids e.g. winter coats and shoes, school trips, any other larger expenses that are non-negotiable and he can buy directly - he might not be so fussed about contact? I would consider this a price worth paying for more time with my kids if I could afford it.

Either way, no, YABU to stay in this relationship (and i say that as a child of divorce who is very averse to all the hearts and flowers 'you only live once', 'you deserve to be happy', 'happy mum happy kids' blah blah - divorce is not always best for kids just because it's convenient for parents, kids do not always 'adapt', and the parents' rights to be 'happy' do not always supercede the child's right to stability). In this case, your husband is very visibly abusing you, there is no way your children can fail to be aware of it, and the very fact that they can see him being so cruel to you will damage their relationships with both of you. "Daddy's being grumpy" doesn't cut it.

@Nevisonspad I forgot to mention that I read that the most ideal time for divorce is when children are very young. When they are teenagers you get all sorts of problems, they might blame themselves for the split and have issues (although I believe more issues if they witness the abuse of their mother). I believe that, in your case, the ideal time is now.

I have a friend in a situation like this. Her daughters are now teenagers and between them are suffering from anxiety, depression, eating disorders and OCD. I have no idea whether growing up in such a toxic atmosphere contributed to their mental health issues but it’s definitely possible.

You get one life. You can’t spend 13 more years of it in a miserable relationship. Your kids will be happier spending time with two separate happy parents, however that time is divided. FWIW I envy my divorced SIL her child free time! Her children get double holidays, double Christmas and both parents are MUCH happier in new relationships.

I don't know how old your child is but the end may be in sight because your child's feelings about contact will be listened to at about 11/12.