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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have expected subject specialists at secondary school

140 replies

notsallyrooney · 06/01/2023 11:55

My children (Y7 and Y9) have the same teacher - one for science, one for geography. The teacher is an English teacher.

They seem to be a great teacher, have behaviour under control and both my kids are really happy with this set up. But is it weird/worrying that they aren't a subject specialist (or, indeed, teaching just one subject so able to focus on that)? Or is this just how it is now with (state, comprehensive) secondary schools?

The school have a number of vacancies they are clearly struggling to fill, so I assume they have had to be creative with staffing and totally appreciate that it's all a bit of a nightmare in the education sector at the moment. Just wondered how normal this is and whether we should be worried?

OP posts:
Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 16:55

pompomdaisy · 06/01/2023 15:33

DH was teaching secondary science up to a few weeks ago. His degree was in geology. He's a shit hot teacher though so he can pretty much teach anything. He left because of all the other shit he had to do; social work, mental health counselling, administration, bouncer. You name it!

But unless he is a qualified specifically in secondary science, then he is not insured to teach science practicals

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/01/2023 16:56

Yes indeed.

l taught DT. Random teacher can’t teach the machinery. They have to have H and S

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 16:57

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 16:53

Geography, possibly, but not English or science

You definitely can if you try hard enough. I did

Pinkysunset · 06/01/2023 16:57

I work in an independent school and we can’t get a dt teacher for anything! Been advertising since September. Money’s good, it’s a nice school….not even an application!

CoffeeBoy · 06/01/2023 16:58

My sister left teaching because of this. She has a science degree and was a science teacher but was told to teach maths as well.

i think the head told her she could teach to the level below what her qualification was in. So if she had an A level in a subject she could teach it at gcse but not A level. If she only had a gcse then she could teach up to and including year 9. Not sure if that’s a general rule or just that school.

anyway her school couldn’t recruit a maths teacher so guess they felt they had no choice but they also lost a science teacher because she quit!

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 16:59

Breadcrumbsforall · 06/01/2023 14:16

I'm sure people do realise that teachers in both the state and independent sector train at the same colleges on the same courses etc etc. Why wouldn't they?

I can only speak from my very limited knowledge of 3 indie schools near me, but ALL have highly qualified staff and make a point of advertising it.

This is the sort of comment I mean. There is no difference between the staff. Private school staff are not more highly qualified. A private school may emphasise staff qualifications more than a state school, but private school staff are not more highly qualified

ILoveeCakes · 06/01/2023 17:02

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 16:59

This is the sort of comment I mean. There is no difference between the staff. Private school staff are not more highly qualified. A private school may emphasise staff qualifications more than a state school, but private school staff are not more highly qualified

State schools have a lot of teachers who got 2:2s from comedy unis.
Private schools, not so much - plenty of teachers there have very good degrees.

Not all degrees are equal. Sorry - but they are not.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:04

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 16:57

You definitely can if you try hard enough. I did

Up to a point, maybe, but only up to a point.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:05

ILoveeCakes · 06/01/2023 17:02

State schools have a lot of teachers who got 2:2s from comedy unis.
Private schools, not so much - plenty of teachers there have very good degrees.

Not all degrees are equal. Sorry - but they are not.

Again, it is the SAME PEOPLE!

Teachers move between the two sectors freely

There is not two separate pools of teachers!

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 17:07

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:04

Up to a point, maybe, but only up to a point.

The point is whenever you give up. I got an A* in GCSE Science and English by myself

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:08

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 17:07

The point is whenever you give up. I got an A* in GCSE Science and English by myself

That doesn't mean you have experienced or understood the subject though.

ILoveeCakes · 06/01/2023 17:08

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:05

Again, it is the SAME PEOPLE!

Teachers move between the two sectors freely

There is not two separate pools of teachers!

Same pool, but guess who gets first dibs and picks out the better ones? Because they can offer their preferred candidates a better work experience.

Not the state school in Moss Side, Manchester, that's for sure.

KnottyKnitting · 06/01/2023 17:09

Ha ha- in the shambles that is our current education system you can whistle for specialist teachers. Staff are leaving the profession in droves and qualified graduates with the specialist knowledge can earn far more for loads less stress in other industries.

Don't blame the school- blame the government who have systematically decimated education and have no answers or desire to do anything about it. I am so pleased my DCs are no longer in education...

MajorCarolDanvers · 06/01/2023 17:10

In Scotland teachers are specialists with a degree in their (or related) subject.

In England anyone can each anything

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 17:11

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:08

That doesn't mean you have experienced or understood the subject though.

😂😂😂🤦

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:14

ILoveeCakes · 06/01/2023 17:08

Same pool, but guess who gets first dibs and picks out the better ones? Because they can offer their preferred candidates a better work experience.

Not the state school in Moss Side, Manchester, that's for sure.

no, not the case at all, working in the private sector has its own issues, and quite often its the state schools that offer the better pay and conditions, and are the first choice for teachers. It depends. I have worked in 4 private schools, including two in the top 5 in the country. ( not all as a teacher) I would rate all 4 in my bottom 6 all time schools. In terms of work conditions, that is. ANd in terms of bullying from parents. ( I have worked in about 20 schools, sometimes several at once)

I would consider working in a private school again, n ow my children have grown up, but certainly not above working in a state school. I would be comparing the job descriptions, the hours, the staff conditions, etc. I wouldn't turn down a job BECAUSE it was in a private school, but being private in itself would definitely NOT be a point in its favour

cantkeepawayforever · 06/01/2023 17:16

It depends on what you mean by ‘better’ - given the two dimensions of teaching I referred to earlier, private schools will tend (as a general rule) to recruit those with better-sounding previous academic qualifications (even without teacher training). State schools will tend to recruit those whose ‘teaching skill / knowledge’ is better and wider - including eg behaviour management, knowledge of SEN, etc.

Again ime, staff from private schools who apply to state schools are historically rejected through lack of teaching skills. Some staff from state schools do not sound ‘impressive enough’ for private schools. I do know of a private school almost wholly staffed from those managed out by state schools, but that is an outlier!

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:19

A big part of the job in private school is selling the product to parents. I'm not particularly bothered with spending my time and effort on that, it isn't really me. SOme teachers are very good at it, this is what private schools like in staff.

For example, in my current state school I have a lot more freedom in the dress code- with suits me as I cycle in most days. In private school there can be almost a uniform for staff, specific colours, etc, which have to be EXACT. And one school wanted all women in heels. Cant be bothered with that at all, totally impractical. But if parents expect to see it, it has to be done

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:21

cantkeepawayforever · 06/01/2023 17:16

It depends on what you mean by ‘better’ - given the two dimensions of teaching I referred to earlier, private schools will tend (as a general rule) to recruit those with better-sounding previous academic qualifications (even without teacher training). State schools will tend to recruit those whose ‘teaching skill / knowledge’ is better and wider - including eg behaviour management, knowledge of SEN, etc.

Again ime, staff from private schools who apply to state schools are historically rejected through lack of teaching skills. Some staff from state schools do not sound ‘impressive enough’ for private schools. I do know of a private school almost wholly staffed from those managed out by state schools, but that is an outlier!

Yes, I agree that some staff have a better "cultural fit" to one type of school or another, but it certainly isnt the case that private schools get "first dibs" - they traditionally often get the ones who state schools dont want.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/01/2023 17:23

Yes, I agree that some staff have a better "cultural fit" to one type of school or another, but it certainly isnt the case that private schools get "first dibs" - they traditionally often get the ones who state schools dont want

l was going to say this. Also l worked with lots of doctors in state schools.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/01/2023 17:28

@ILoveeCakes l wonder where you are getting your info from?

l worked with loads of doctors in state schools. The ones who went to private were the ones who couldn’t hack the conditions in state schools.

It’s nothing to do with academic qualifications. State schools are tough, but they don’t own yoh kick stock and barrel line private schools do. There’s actually quite a lot of resistance to teaching in private schools. Some private schools are now refusing to pay into Teachers Pensions. So teachers don’t want to akways work there.

GuyFawkesDay · 06/01/2023 17:29

Shhh but I have one of those top degrees from Oxbridge and I teach .....in state school.

Private just is not for me, we are beholden to parents enough as it is. I'm sure I could go to a private school if I wanted to

Interestingly the worst teaching interview I ever saw was given by a teacher coming out of indie sector. Absolutely dreadful.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:29

There are a lot of doctors in state schools, they dont all always use their title.

I think is private schools you do generally get MORE teachers, but this does come at the expense of other things. I remember one private school which couldn't provide chairs and desks for all their staff, for example. You had to spend the whole day standing up. ( in heels) . There also was only one staff toilet. There wasn't enough furniture, enough storage or enough space for us all. This is an example I was thinking of when I say working conditions in private schools can be a lot worse

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:30

oh yes, that is another one, the pension situation in private schools can be a big negative

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 17:32

but bullying from parents was the worse thing about working in private schools that I remember - they had your phone number and were allowed to ring until 8pm. in one school