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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have expected subject specialists at secondary school

140 replies

notsallyrooney · 06/01/2023 11:55

My children (Y7 and Y9) have the same teacher - one for science, one for geography. The teacher is an English teacher.

They seem to be a great teacher, have behaviour under control and both my kids are really happy with this set up. But is it weird/worrying that they aren't a subject specialist (or, indeed, teaching just one subject so able to focus on that)? Or is this just how it is now with (state, comprehensive) secondary schools?

The school have a number of vacancies they are clearly struggling to fill, so I assume they have had to be creative with staffing and totally appreciate that it's all a bit of a nightmare in the education sector at the moment. Just wondered how normal this is and whether we should be worried?

OP posts:
Dogstar78 · 06/01/2023 14:02

I left teaching nearly 20 years ago. I know things have got a lot worse, but it was common back then too. I taught geography (what I was qualified to teach) to A Level. Then at KS3 history, RS, citizenship, PSHE, PE, Leisure and Tourism, Travel and Tourism, the last two to Level 3- post 16 students. During an academic year I was teaching at least 5 of these subjects. They keep the subject specialists for the exam groups. I actually found I was more effective teaching some new subjects, having been through the learning curve on content and thinking carefully about how to teach it, rather than the autopilot on more familiar topics.

Breadcrumbsforall · 06/01/2023 14:16

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 13:43

I am always surprised when people dont realise that state school teachers and independent school teachers are the same people, from the same training courses, with the same qualifications, and who work in different schools at different stages of their career.

Most teachers in my school have masters degrees . I do. many also have PhDs

The only difference is that they will all have teaching qualifications too.

You dont need a teaching qualification to be employed as a teacher in an independent school. Some of the most prestigious schools in the country go round local unis recruiting undergrads as junior teachers, then employing them full time after they graduate.

These particular teachers will spend their entire career in the independent sector, as they will not be qualified for the state sector.

But those of us who are qualified teachers move between the two sectors according to stage of career, family commitments, personal preference etc.

As a qualified but inexperienced young teacher I worked in a private schools that required boarding duties. That has never been an option while raising a family, but I would consider it again now

There are disadvantages to private schools, behaviour can be very poor, bullying of staff both by students and parents. Health and safety and supervision is nowhere near as tight, staff facilities can be very poor indeed, and hours can include many compulsory Saturdays

And, contrary to what you might think, some private schools are worse funded than state schools. Just because they are funded differently does not automatically mean they are funded better. The school I was in, for example, had no cleaning staff, instead they offered a free room to any couple who would clean the school once a day, hours they could choose themselves. Sometimes this worked well, sometimes the room stayed empty and the school uncleaned.

The biggest issue I have found in a private school is no supply staff ever, as they are not budgeted for, leading to classes being amalgamated beyond the point of safety, and reasonable accommodation. Once, a teacher alone with 3 classes had to deal with a serious asthma attack, and the 3 classes were left unsupervised crammed together in a tiny room. Nothing bad happened, but it could have

Anyway, this has become a long post - my main point is that there really are not two pools of staff, one state one private. There are two pools of staff, one qualified, one unqualifed, and the unqualified teachers are mostly in private schools, and the qualified teachers move around between both

I'm sure people do realise that teachers in both the state and independent sector train at the same colleges on the same courses etc etc. Why wouldn't they?

I can only speak from my very limited knowledge of 3 indie schools near me, but ALL have highly qualified staff and make a point of advertising it.

cantkeepawayforever · 06/01/2023 14:21

I think that there can be a difference between the staff ‘advertised’ and the staff ‘actually standing in front of the class’, though.

If the Physics department has Dr Smith PhD (Cantab) and Miss Jones is hidden away in ‘Support Staff’, but your child actually has Miss Jones for 3 out of 5 lessons, it is true that the school ‘has highly qualified staff’. It’s just not true that Little Johnny has a highly qualified staff member as their full time Physics teacher.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 14:21

Breadcrumbsforall · 06/01/2023 14:16

I'm sure people do realise that teachers in both the state and independent sector train at the same colleges on the same courses etc etc. Why wouldn't they?

I can only speak from my very limited knowledge of 3 indie schools near me, but ALL have highly qualified staff and make a point of advertising it.

But that is what I mean, they are not more highly qualified than the state school staff. It will be the same people, moving between the two types of schools, locally

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 14:23

cantkeepawayforever · 06/01/2023 14:21

I think that there can be a difference between the staff ‘advertised’ and the staff ‘actually standing in front of the class’, though.

If the Physics department has Dr Smith PhD (Cantab) and Miss Jones is hidden away in ‘Support Staff’, but your child actually has Miss Jones for 3 out of 5 lessons, it is true that the school ‘has highly qualified staff’. It’s just not true that Little Johnny has a highly qualified staff member as their full time Physics teacher.

And Miss Jones might be a qualified teacher, and Dr Smith might not be

Reugny · 06/01/2023 14:23

LovelyDayInnit · 06/01/2023 12:19

How good they are as a teacher matters more than their subject specialism. My A-Level chemistry teacher had a degree in earth sciences and had got a D at A Level Chemistry but he was a pretty good teacher and I got 100% in most of my chemistry papers. Similarly, my biology teacher only had a GCSE in biology but taught A-Level. She was one of the best teachers I ever had and I still remember some of her lessons now! I don't think this is a new thing in state schools - certainly it was part of my experience over 20 years ago.

You just reminded me one of my Chemistry A level lecturers at college had been to Cambridge and got a PhD. He was one the worst teachers I ever had in my life.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 14:25

I dont think there is any difference in the quality of the teaching staff in state and independent schools, other than the independent schools may be employing more of them.

There is the point that independent school staff dont have to be qualified teachers, but on the other side, will need a bit more commercial acumen.

newtb · 06/01/2023 14:27

It was the case 40+ years ago. The wife of on of xh's collegues was a lab tech at a comprehensive in Leyland, ex grammar, with LRIC, the teacher a history grad. She often had to stop the lessons because of serious concerns for safety.

cantkeepawayforever · 06/01/2023 14:28

It is also true that ‘teaching expertise’ and ‘subject expertise’ are different. The best teachers have both, but even then a teacher’s teaching expertise may be brilliant with high ability groups and not those who struggle, or vice versa.

In some subjects, there is absolutely no substitute for’’subject expertise’ (Maths, MFL, Music come to mind), and this becomes increasingly true fir all subjects through KS4 and A level.

In other subjects, and lower tears, ‘teaching expertise’ is probably the most important success factor. Extending down into primary, with its huge range if subjects, it is definitely the predominant factor - though even in primary, wrong subject knowledge or misleading over-simplistic approaches can cause long term issues (place value in Maths, multiplying by 10 by ‘putting a zero at the end’ etc is a particular bugbear).

GloomyDarkness · 06/01/2023 15:03

pinkflop · 06/01/2023 12:09

My son is in Year 11 and doing GCSE Food Prep and BTEC Construction. He's not had a consistent, qualified teacher for either subject since September. He currently has random supply teachers. At this stage he might just about pass the BTEC. I know the school are doing everything to recruit a teacher but have failed so far. I'm at a loss as to what we can do about it.

We are in Wales under Welsh labour government- same here - though it often core subjects like English and maths it's been in - Welsh barley had any qualified teachers in entire secondary school years and that's massively impacted enthusiasm.

Books, on-line resources, past papers and parental support being accepted and self motivation mean I still hope DS will do well.

DN is England - I think it was Textile Design - she was complaining not teacher all year and just had a bad practical exam - school can't get anyone in.

My Y9 has had one teacher for 4 different subjects over last two years- so I don't think it can be teaching a secondary topic - art, DT - history and science.

DD1 a-level experience at the college hasn't been as bad -they seem to be able to get qualified staff.

I don't know what the answer is - I suspect it pay but also conditions related and I worry it will just get worse.

Goosefatroasts · 06/01/2023 15:07

Very normal, particularly in academies. I went in to work as a first aider and by the second term I had a health and social care timetable. I hadn’t even finished my degree by this point. Lots of unqualified staff teaching now, they struggle to recruit and unqualified teachers are also cheaper to employ.

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 15:08

It's not necessary. You could teach all the subjects yourself if you wanted or at that age kids can learn independently.

It's nice, but not necessary

GentlyBen · 06/01/2023 15:08

cantkeepawayforever · 06/01/2023 14:21

I think that there can be a difference between the staff ‘advertised’ and the staff ‘actually standing in front of the class’, though.

If the Physics department has Dr Smith PhD (Cantab) and Miss Jones is hidden away in ‘Support Staff’, but your child actually has Miss Jones for 3 out of 5 lessons, it is true that the school ‘has highly qualified staff’. It’s just not true that Little Johnny has a highly qualified staff member as their full time Physics teacher.

This is absolutely what happens. They’ll say “all our teachers have at least a master’s in a relevant subject to the one that they teach” but actually most of the classes are taught by “tutors” who aren’t technically “teachers” so don’t need to have a masters in order for the school to make that claim.

pinkflop · 06/01/2023 15:12

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 15:08

It's not necessary. You could teach all the subjects yourself if you wanted or at that age kids can learn independently.

It's nice, but not necessary

I wouldn't be able to teach me child how to produce 4 different joints for the carpentry element of BTEC Construction, and I certainly wouldn't let him loose to teach himself!

GuyFawkesDay · 06/01/2023 15:14

Welcome to the chickens of the last 12 years coming home to roost.

We've been warning about this crisis looming for years, it's been like watching a slow motion car crash. New teacher numbers down, those that do stay often don't last. Older teachers bullied out as they get expensive to employ and leaving.

It's something as parents, we should be up in arms about. It's totally avoidable too. Pay teachers properly. Sort out their bonkers working conditions. It then becomes the job it should be, which is a joy. It's the BEST job in the world when it's you and the kids in the classroom (as long as they're behaving).

GuyFawkesDay · 06/01/2023 15:15

Oh and yes I teach 4 subjects, 2 of which is don't even have a GCSE in. I have to read a lot!

noblegiraffe · 06/01/2023 15:25

My school is currently struggling to recruit a couple of A-level teachers. For months the kids have had no teacher and have been expected to teach themselves. Kids who took both subjects are now only coming in for their third subject, so 4 lessons a week, which is ridiculous.

Same problem last year but in different subjects.

BelleMarionette · 06/01/2023 15:29

Wow, this thread is very depressing reading. I have four children, and can't afford private education.

When I went to school, not that long ago, we only had subject specialists teaching us. That included specialist for Biology, Chemistry and Physics, who did not cross over to other sciences.

Clearly teacher recruitment and retention is an issue, and the answer to this must be better pay and conditions. It's the same across pretty all the public sector. NHS staffing is also at crisis point.

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 15:31

pinkflop · 06/01/2023 15:12

I wouldn't be able to teach me child how to produce 4 different joints for the carpentry element of BTEC Construction, and I certainly wouldn't let him loose to teach himself!

She's talking about year 7 and 9 English, Geography, and Science. Where on earth did you get carpentry from...

But you could that too if you tried hard enough

pompomdaisy · 06/01/2023 15:33

DH was teaching secondary science up to a few weeks ago. His degree was in geology. He's a shit hot teacher though so he can pretty much teach anything. He left because of all the other shit he had to do; social work, mental health counselling, administration, bouncer. You name it!

GuyFawkesDay · 06/01/2023 15:58

Yep, I am a subject specialist but teach across humanities, then have taught KS3 English and maths at yr7, as well as leisure and tourism and various BTECs.

I am good at my job. I get great results, and can manage a classroom and kids well

The kids and teaching itself won't be why I leave. The drudgery, mad hours and the fact we appear to be basically raising some of our charges will. It's all got so out of hand. Total mess that needs wholesale change.

LeFeu · 06/01/2023 16:01

Tbh, at least they’re an actual teacher. I was a school librarian for a bit and ended up being asked to cover lessons, including a 6th form phse lesson on consent which seemed like something a qualified individual should’ve been handling!

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/01/2023 16:06

DisneyChops · 06/01/2023 12:00

Quite common nowadays.
So many teachers leaving. The Facebook group I'm in called 'life after teaching' has 112,000 members.
It's dire.

Wow! I left that group about a year ago (when l got out!) l swear it had 48000 members in it then!

Mum1976Mum · 06/01/2023 16:12

We scrimp and save to send our children to an independent. They have specialist teachers for all subjects, even in the prep school attached and the teaching is amazing. That’s what all schools should be like.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 16:53

PennyRa · 06/01/2023 15:31

She's talking about year 7 and 9 English, Geography, and Science. Where on earth did you get carpentry from...

But you could that too if you tried hard enough

Geography, possibly, but not English or science

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