To have expected subject specialists at secondary school

[notsallyrooney]

My children (Y7 and Y9) have the same teacher - one for science, one for geography. The teacher is an English teacher.

They seem to be a great teacher, have behaviour under control and both my kids are really happy with this set up. But is it weird/worrying that they aren't a subject specialist (or, indeed, teaching just one subject so able to focus on that)? Or is this just how it is now with (state, comprehensive) secondary schools?

The school have a number of vacancies they are clearly struggling to fill, so I assume they have had to be creative with staffing and totally appreciate that it's all a bit of a nightmare in the education sector at the moment. Just wondered how normal this is and whether we should be worried?

Thanks so much for this - I muddled through an A level in Psychology by similar means (some time ago) so will definitely have a closer look at the specifications with my Y9.

I can't afford private education, probably can't afford tutoring (certainly not extensive tutoring) - but I CAN definitely be an involved parent taking an interest so that's really nice to hear!

I was taught GCSE physics by a teacher who had a degree in RE and would cheerfully admit he barely understood what he was teaching us! And that was in the mid-1990s.

Independent schools are better at hiding this sort of thing from parents, but some of the stories I have heard recently are alarming to say the least, certainly they break the guidance on ratios, which would never happen in a state school. We send children home if we cant keep up a certain adult to child ratio

This is how it is - it shouldn't be, but it is.

And then there is the nonsense of "specialist" academies. One local school set itself up as a "Modern Languages Academy" and is unable to offer A-level German due to not having suitably qualified teachers. Hmm .....

Really sorry to read this, I feel so sad for this generation of kids who are being failed - especially when they have missed out on so much due to Covid. I hope your son gets what he needs to move onto the next step!

How good they are as a teacher matters more than their subject specialism. My A-Level chemistry teacher had a degree in earth sciences and had got a D at A Level Chemistry but he was a pretty good teacher and I got 100% in most of my chemistry papers. Similarly, my biology teacher only had a GCSE in biology but taught A-Level. She was one of the best teachers I ever had and I still remember some of her lessons now! I don't think this is a new thing in state schools - certainly it was part of my experience over 20 years ago.

Think you're right - I was at a questionable school and my specialist science teachers had absolutely zero control of the behaviour in the class, so it made no difference what their degree was in!

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but maybe more in the indys who are struggling? Certainly class sizes are never more than 18 for Yrs 7-9 and 16 for Yrs 10 + 11.

In lower school it's fine.

I used to teach MFL. I was allowed to teach French and German to A-level because I had a degree in those but I was allowed to teach Spanish to GCSE with just an A-level in it and I had a colleague with only GCSE Spanish who taught it to Y7 and 8.

It would be nicer to have specialists but especially in a comprehensive, I imagine this isn't uncommon.

I'd have a problem with A-levels being taught by non specialists.

Same. I wouldn't be happy paying for an English grad to teach Maths.

Second this! I was a science teacher but could get paid far more working in the science industry with better work-life balance so I left!

If schools want to retain experts they need to pay accordingly, improve work life balance and actually implement effective behaviour policies. Unfortunately behaviour is such an issue in some schools having a subject expert is frankly a waste of time.

I think my daughters school prioritise GCSE years. So my daughter is Y7 had a sub for Spanish. Her Spanish teacher was in but because she is experienced she was used to cover the older class rather than put a sub in there.

Might as well stay home and read a textbook. Any half way intelligent kid would get through it in a fraction of the time they do in school and have time for worthwhile developmental pursuits.

I work in one of the most oversubscribed, state schools in the whole of my large city. You'd think it would be a dream to teach there, high achieving, generally well behaved children from middle class, engaged families.
We can't appoint either, for all sorts of subjects but especially sciences - and often end up advertising for unqualified recent graduates who would like to try out life in the classroom before committing to a PGCE.

You are right to be worried but it is very common. Why would graduates of science and maths etc go into teaching when graduate salaries are so much higher elsewhere?

YANBU to expect subject specialists.

YABU to assume this would be the case though.

it’s been a problem for a while - my favourite one I’ve come across locally is a Head of Science with a degree in Theology.

I’m all for degrees teaching you transferable skills but that did seem a bit of a reach if I’m honest.

At the moment all teachers are on the same salary scale, consideration should be given to pay higher for certain specialities.

Thanks @notsallyrooney. Fortunately he doesn't want to do A Levels (in fact he has no idea what he wants to do, but that's another story!). I think he'll scrape by and do a T Level or a BTEC at college. I feel very frustrated that his year is being treated like Covid had no detrimental effect on his learning, he missed lots of vital learning of key subjects that's built upon during the GCSE years so he basically has gaps that have never been filled. This may be a school problem rather than a nationwide problem.

So little teachers. However in our school if you studied a subject to a-level you could be asked to teach it. Usually just to the junior classes.

My understanding is that local independent has a qualified teacher in 1 class / set who plans the lesson, and an unqualified teacher / assistant who delivers it to the parallel one. The qualified teacher is listed as the teacher for both classes but is only present in one….

(Sorry -up to the end of KS3 for my example. I don’t have evidence of what happens in KS4 / Alevel)

But they're not. Academies and private schools can set their own pay scales. They can choose to use the same scales that non-academy state schools use if they wish. But it's not a given that every teacher will be paid the same amount at the same point in their career.

They've had extra money for trainees on Maths and Science teaching courses for years.

And by your reasoning, would you say that a primary teacher should be paid less, but a teacher teaching A Level Maths should be paid more?

I saw Rishi on TV this morning saying how grateful he was for his fantastic education. It’s lunacy to say that his party doesn’t value education. The parties just have different ways of thinking about how to achieve a good education. Newsflash - over the past few decades, both labour and conservatives have fucked education hard. It can’t be fixed. Parental involvement or serious self motivation is needed for a kid to do well. Even then, they will be behind their international counterparts.

Yes if the teacher teaching A Level maths has a maths degree then they should be paid more if we want specialists to teach our children. Market forces are at play and a good maths graduate could earn more than teaching pays so if specialists are wanted/needed they should be paid accordingly.

They only value education for their own class and in private settings. They don't value state education. Otherwise they wouldn't have overseen the narrowing of the curriculum, the annihilation of the valuing of the Arts as part of a broad education and the teaching of complex grammatical terminology at primary whilst simultaneously stripping away creative writing.
Gove was the worst thing to happen to education for 50 years, instead of looking forwards to the skills our children will need in the future he decided every child needs to know about concrete amd abstract nouns (the definition of them though, not how to use them to liven up creative writing). The Tories have systematically demonised teachers and overseen the biggest exodus of qualified, experienced teachers ever.
How can you sit there and say that they value education?!