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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have expected subject specialists at secondary school

140 replies

notsallyrooney · 06/01/2023 11:55

My children (Y7 and Y9) have the same teacher - one for science, one for geography. The teacher is an English teacher.

They seem to be a great teacher, have behaviour under control and both my kids are really happy with this set up. But is it weird/worrying that they aren't a subject specialist (or, indeed, teaching just one subject so able to focus on that)? Or is this just how it is now with (state, comprehensive) secondary schools?

The school have a number of vacancies they are clearly struggling to fill, so I assume they have had to be creative with staffing and totally appreciate that it's all a bit of a nightmare in the education sector at the moment. Just wondered how normal this is and whether we should be worried?

OP posts:
lanthanum · 06/01/2023 12:53

The ideal is specialist teaching, but the reality is that it's not always possible. As well as the shortages in some subjects, there's sometimes an issue of balancing up timetables, so some teaching out of subject may end up happening, usually at the lower end of the school. (I also saw it happen where a deputy head left mid-year, and his replacement inherited his timetable - which wasn't her subject at all.)

One year we had non-specialists teaching 6 maths groups. Most were scientists, and the other had been teaching maths as a second subject for some time. We gave them the middle sets in year 7, and had separate department meetings where we looked at the topics coming up and gave them advice on teaching those.

Some teachers in secondary are actually primary-trained. In another school, we were short for one maths group, but a primary-trained humanities teacher was part-time and wanted more hours. The group concerned were still at primary school level, so she wasn't really teaching beyond her training.

Some teachers are really good at teaching, regardless of subject, and put in the time to make sure they are sure of the material they are teaching.

twistyizzy · 06/01/2023 12:53

@Redhotchllisteppa you realise primary teachers have to teach maths, English, science, RE, PSHE, history, geography and I.T? They will also have a degree in one of those subjects so how do they deserve a lower rate of pay than a teacher who just teaches 1 Subject?

Sartre · 06/01/2023 12:55

Not uncommon and happened when I was at school. Had a geography teacher as my history teacher in year 7. Easily one of the best teachers I had though so it really didn’t matter. DH knows someone who has an English degree yet teaches maths?? It happens, provided they’re a decent teacher then it really doesn’t matter.

SirenSays · 06/01/2023 12:56

My history teacher was the sixth form law teacher. My English teacher was the drama teacher. RE and PE teachers were always swapping and changing.
And we had god awful supply teachers for maths for almost 2 years.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 12:58

One issue that does occur to me with this set up though, is that an English teacher wont be insured to do science practicals

Breadcrumbsforall · 06/01/2023 12:58

Our independent school has specialised teachers in all the subjects - mostly to Masters or Doctorate level.

Redhotchllisteppa · 06/01/2023 13:02

twistyizzy · 06/01/2023 12:53

@Redhotchllisteppa you realise primary teachers have to teach maths, English, science, RE, PSHE, history, geography and I.T? They will also have a degree in one of those subjects so how do they deserve a lower rate of pay than a teacher who just teaches 1 Subject?

Because at primary schools you are recruiting a generalist rather than a specialist. The gcse and a level content requires more indepth specialist knowledge. As i said before if we want specialists to teach we have take into account that certain specialists can get paid more elsewhere so need to up the pay offer to attract them. I am not saying primary school teachers dont work hard or deserve decent pay but they dont have the same market forces at play in terms of recruitment.

jtaeapa · 06/01/2023 13:03

twistyizzy · 06/01/2023 12:50

They only value education for their own class and in private settings. They don't value state education. Otherwise they wouldn't have overseen the narrowing of the curriculum, the annihilation of the valuing of the Arts as part of a broad education and the teaching of complex grammatical terminology at primary whilst simultaneously stripping away creative writing.
Gove was the worst thing to happen to education for 50 years, instead of looking forwards to the skills our children will need in the future he decided every child needs to know about concrete amd abstract nouns (the definition of them though, not how to use them to liven up creative writing). The Tories have systematically demonised teachers and overseen the biggest exodus of qualified, experienced teachers ever.
How can you sit there and say that they value education?!

Because he said so this morning.

twistyizzy · 06/01/2023 13:05

jtaeapa · 06/01/2023 13:03

Because he said so this morning.

Because he said so 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 And they never ever lie do they 🙄 So if Rishi says something we should just believe him?
He was privately educated wasn't he? So he values private education.

twistyizzy · 06/01/2023 13:07

@jtaeapa he went to the most exclusive prep school in the country etc. When he says he values education he doesn't mean that he values it for your child at the local comp. He means for other kids at Win Coll/Eton etc.
Get a grip seriously!

jtaeapa · 06/01/2023 13:11

twistyizzy · 06/01/2023 13:07

@jtaeapa he went to the most exclusive prep school in the country etc. When he says he values education he doesn't mean that he values it for your child at the local comp. He means for other kids at Win Coll/Eton etc.
Get a grip seriously!

I have a grip thanks. My ds just got 9x9 at GCSE. It’s because I repaired his education myself, every single evening and weekend. I’m helping the OP by telling her she will need to repair her kids’ education herself. Nobody else will. Voting and arguing about party politics won’t help the OP’s child who is in school today with an inadequate education. By the way, I didn’t vote. All the “choices” were poor.

Songlyrics · 06/01/2023 13:11

notsallyrooney · 06/01/2023 12:03

Interesting this happens in independent school as well, I didn't realise that! (Sorry double posted this, I don't really ever post on here, more of a compulsive lurker.)

This doesn't happen in any of the independent schools I've looked at. My DC are in independent schools (different ones) and the junior school has specialist subject teachers for French, music, PE and swimming. Its senior school has specialist subject teachers for all subjects. The prep school we use has specialist subject teachers for every single subject from year 5 onwards. We looked at many senior schools and every single one we looked at had specialist subject teachers.

2FelisCatus · 06/01/2023 13:13

Write to your MP. It's not acceptable! The provision between state and private is really turning into a giant chasm.

twistyizzy · 06/01/2023 13:17

jtaeapa · 06/01/2023 13:11

I have a grip thanks. My ds just got 9x9 at GCSE. It’s because I repaired his education myself, every single evening and weekend. I’m helping the OP by telling her she will need to repair her kids’ education herself. Nobody else will. Voting and arguing about party politics won’t help the OP’s child who is in school today with an inadequate education. By the way, I didn’t vote. All the “choices” were poor.

And it is terrible that you had to do that. A decent education should be a basic right in the 21st century. The problem is that if everyone takes the opinion that its not worth voting then nothjmg will change. The only way you create change is through the electoral system, based on what your personal priorities are. Sadly education never seems to be important at the polling booth although everyone is quick enough to kick off about it afterwards. The 1 definite though is the that Rishi does not care about education , the current debate is his attempt to draw focus away from the NHS.

DelurkingAJ · 06/01/2023 13:23

This has been the case for several decades. I have good A-Levels in maths, further maths, chemistry and physics (and then a science degree) and 20 years ago was temping in an independent school as admin. My friend, Head of Maths in a London comprehensive was flabbergasted as she said she’d have had to fight the Head of Science to split my time teaching A-level sets as she was the only maths teacher in the school with a maths qualification beyond single A-level maths.

Lidlfix · 06/01/2023 13:24

Or come to Scotland where the GTCS will only grant you registration in a subject relevant to your degree (and will ask for academic transcripts to decide) and on holding an approved professional teaching qualification.

That said many schools are struggling to fill Computing, Tech, Physics and Home Ec posts as graduates can earn much better salaries and have much better conditions.

We have to make the profession more attractive. The year I qualified as an English teacher from a popular central belt Uni 20 of us became probationers, this was regarded as a small cohort. This year there will be 4.

I am glad my DDs are all past school age now. One a teacher who says she can't see herself teaching when she has a family as it consumes your life.

2bazookas · 06/01/2023 13:26

Some teachers have a wide range of interests, life experience, several degrees, and are fully qualified academically, to teach more than one subject.

In my experience, that range of outlook and curiosity often results in particularly fine teaching skills.

DomPom47 · 06/01/2023 13:29

Not sure about science but Geography teachers are impossible to come by it seems.

CMOTDibbler · 06/01/2023 13:29

I know someone who decided to do direct teacher training in physics, even though she hadn't done any physics since A level (22 years before). She teaches physics in a very posh private school now.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 06/01/2023 13:34

I think at lower levels sometimes the teaching style is more important (as long as the teacher understands the content, of course).

I tutored a girl for entrance exams, and then ended up doing music theory exam prep with her as well because she just couldn't get the hang of it with her music teacher, even though on paper he was far more qualified to teach it than me!

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 06/01/2023 13:39

My independent did expect every teacher to have a second subject they were willing to teach, although it was rarely necessary, and they'd only ever do it with the juniors or maybe Year 7s.

Nimbostratus100 · 06/01/2023 13:43

Breadcrumbsforall · 06/01/2023 12:58

Our independent school has specialised teachers in all the subjects - mostly to Masters or Doctorate level.

I am always surprised when people dont realise that state school teachers and independent school teachers are the same people, from the same training courses, with the same qualifications, and who work in different schools at different stages of their career.

Most teachers in my school have masters degrees . I do. many also have PhDs

The only difference is that they will all have teaching qualifications too.

You dont need a teaching qualification to be employed as a teacher in an independent school. Some of the most prestigious schools in the country go round local unis recruiting undergrads as junior teachers, then employing them full time after they graduate.

These particular teachers will spend their entire career in the independent sector, as they will not be qualified for the state sector.

But those of us who are qualified teachers move between the two sectors according to stage of career, family commitments, personal preference etc.

As a qualified but inexperienced young teacher I worked in a private schools that required boarding duties. That has never been an option while raising a family, but I would consider it again now

There are disadvantages to private schools, behaviour can be very poor, bullying of staff both by students and parents. Health and safety and supervision is nowhere near as tight, staff facilities can be very poor indeed, and hours can include many compulsory Saturdays

And, contrary to what you might think, some private schools are worse funded than state schools. Just because they are funded differently does not automatically mean they are funded better. The school I was in, for example, had no cleaning staff, instead they offered a free room to any couple who would clean the school once a day, hours they could choose themselves. Sometimes this worked well, sometimes the room stayed empty and the school uncleaned.

The biggest issue I have found in a private school is no supply staff ever, as they are not budgeted for, leading to classes being amalgamated beyond the point of safety, and reasonable accommodation. Once, a teacher alone with 3 classes had to deal with a serious asthma attack, and the 3 classes were left unsupervised crammed together in a tiny room. Nothing bad happened, but it could have

Anyway, this has become a long post - my main point is that there really are not two pools of staff, one state one private. There are two pools of staff, one qualified, one unqualifed, and the unqualified teachers are mostly in private schools, and the qualified teachers move around between both

MaverickGooseGoose · 06/01/2023 13:44

My husband is a PE teacher, qualified in sports science and geography, now teaches PE, geography and science.

Cuwins · 06/01/2023 13:53

When I was at school (20 years ago now) I always found that the quality of the teaching skill was the most important thing. I had 2 GCSE science teachers (biology and physics) and a A-level history teacher who were both very qualified and knowledgable in their subjects but had very limited ability to control a classroom and also to interest and inspire students- they would just drone on (I always think of them when I read about the history of magic teacher in Harry Potter!). I did ok at science GCSE but could have done much better if I was interested and only just passed a-level history.
However I had a a-level drama teacher who was an English specialist who was fabulous at controlling a very busy classroom and at inspiring people.

Monkeyrules · 06/01/2023 13:59

Part of the problem is the creation of academy schools which favour cheaper inexperienced staff over more qualified teachers so that money can be saved or used to keep giving the executives their high salaries. I've not seen a political party pledge to bring back academy schools into local education control. Until this is done, any money thrown at schools by Labour or Lib Dems won't go to the teachers, it'll be the senior leadership team who benefit or the consultants at the top.

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