School residential, school have said they have to go

[Y4GoingAway]

School Year 4, but it’s a first school so the final year at the school.

Apparently it’s compulsory and there is no provision in school for those who don’t go as the class teachers plus several other staff go.

I don’t want DD to go. She has a genetic condition that affects her muscles and joints. She also has an EHCP due to SN (not ASD)

The trip is canoeing and rock climbing and zip lining and orienteering. Which all sound great but schools only adjustment for DDs condition is she can sit out if she wants to, which she won’t because she never does for Forest School or PE or anything else physical, school say they cannot force DD to sit out. They have PE, Forest School and the morning mile in one day at school and DDs generally screaming in pain by 2pm, I’ve asked for her to sit out of Forest School and the mile but been told that it’s up to DD to decide and she wants to be like her friends so will push herself until she can’t cope anymore – she’s missed school the next day because of the pain and school just shrug and say she needs to tell them when she wants to sit out, while in the next breath saying she seems to refuse to acknowledge her condition as she won’t talk about it!

This isn’t about DD being away overnight, she stays away from me with ExH EOWend for 1 night and he usually takes her away for 3-4 days in the summer holidays plus she’s just done a 3 day pack holiday with Brownies. Also it’s not a cost thing, the trip itself is free, we’re being asked to donate to transport there and back either by paying school for the bus or getting our DC there ourselves.
Brownies where brilliant, they let her choose one active activity per day and then put her in the group that wasn’t doing that activity after she’d done it, so she did crafts or similar, all the girls where given the same opportunity to sit out so no-one knew why DD only did 1 per day – and we’ve agreed that next time she goes she’ll do different activities so she’s tried different things which is a great compromise. Brownies also kept her topped up on her pain medication which school refuse to give her.

They’ve told me they have no provision for giving pain relief on the trip which is the same in school. They’ve also said if children sit out of an activity they will just have to watch everyone else do it, there’s no staffing for them to have a group at the centre they’re staying in doing something else – I even said DD would be happy to do worksheets or similar.

And before anyone says “But there’s more going with school” there’s the same number at Brownies and Brownies had a bigger age range as school only take the 90 year 4s, whereas Brownies had 60 Brownies (7-10 year olds), 30 guides (10-14 year olds), and a couple of Rainbows (7 year olds) who’re ready to move to Brownies soon.

School have said if she doesn’t go they will not be providing alternative work, she will be the only one in her entire year not going and she will be supervised by “whichever member off staff is free”. She does have 1-1 TA for parts of the day and one of her two 1-1s won’t be going and I’ve offered to get her tutor she has outside of school to provide work (tutor has already offered) and I’ve been told again the trip is compulsory. Apparently they've never had anyone not go ever.

So AIBU and just have to suck it up? The trip is after half term.

Thats uncalled for. But I think I’ve made my point, and being called ignorant is the final straw for me.

@Y4GoingAway I hope you get something worked out anyway, good luck.

Would the physio also advise on the daily mile/forest school/PE situation? Some
of those might be beneficial but it sounds like together they are too much. Maybe they could advise which would be best to miss out.

Well as long as it's not the question about how other schools manage perfectly fine to be inclusive that's making you disappear @Pumperthepumper

"Reasonable" really isn't as broad as that. It doesn't mean that a school will get away with doing bugger all so long as they can say they let the child come on the trip to sit and watch the other children. It means they must do as much as is reasonably possible, not the minimum they hope they can get away with. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has some useful guidance confirming that this would not be enough.

If it’s causing the child pain then it’s too much. This is a classic ableist attitude - it may not be too much for most, but given a disability or chronic condition it might be. The individual’s needs have to be properly understood so that they can be accommodated.

Unlikely given the relatively small adjustments OP is asking for, but yes, if you rely on fundraising to cover the costs of a residential trip then you risk not being able to run it if you don't raise enough money. It makes no difference to the school's duties.

Honestly, it doesn't seem too much to expect some worksheets when sitting out and arranging a schedule that would work for your DD, include either a member of staff administering medication or if not, the OP going along at regular intervals to do it, so that her DD can participate.

Chances are on an activity residential for this age group for this long, that there will be minor injuries and tiredness that mean the other children may wish to sit out occasionally. Even just providing some colouring. Or have a parent helper along to help with that. If there are parent governors, they will be DBS checked - they could have asked if any could come along, perhaps for the more active days only.

It really seems they've made zero effort to think of solutions - what about her going for a few days but not all?

Just saying you can't afford even the relatively small adjustments OP is asking for does not absolve schools of the reasonable adjustments duty. If this is a trip they do regularly, it is highly likely that they are taking disabled pupils every time. If, every time, they choose a trip which leaves disabled students sitting on the side doing nothing, they are very clearly discriminating and would get torn apart in the tribunal.

It's also significant that this is a Year 4 trip, so for all the children who have been there since Reception they've had an awfully long time to think about this. A bit of foresight, for instance, could have seen them asking a couple of years ago for specific provision in the EHCP for extra support on trips out of school, which would be funded through the EHCP.

@Y4GoingAway as DD wants to go, and you say cost is not an issue, could you stay somewhere close by and administer meds if needed or collect and bring home if it gets too much for her. If DD wants to go on the trip keeping her off is not really fair, neither is her being in pain, but as the school are not helping, just thinking of what you can do. I have autism and was left out a lot as a child, it has had a lasting impact on me and I hate to think of it happening to kids now

Yes, they can direct staff to administer medicine as part of their duties, having ensured that they have had the relevant training and that insurance covers them. Schools are regularly dealing with pupils who need things like epipens - how do you imagine they manage if all staff can simply refuse and allow pupils to die, potentially?

If this is the normal school trip with someone like PGA, they are offering a range of activities anyway, it's not like they have 60 or 90 children all canoeing or abseiling at once. So they divide the children up into groups and have a carousel of activities. It is relatively simple to include one which is less physical - e.g.a craft-based one - which would not involve any extra staff. In fact, it is good practice, because there will be a number of pupils who need that sort of break, whether because of physical or sensory disabilities or just because they need a calming activity.

This would be the hill I died on if needed.

Do not accept it is compulsory, it simply is not. Also, the school have a due to provide education to your daughter.

Contact the headteacher in writing then the governors. Don't be afraid of them. Be brave and fight your daughters needs.

Good luck

Just take her into school each day, and refuse to collect her early, what are they going to do? Send her home by herself? They have a duty of care which does not include enforcing a residential trip!

You work in ONE school. There are plenty of people on this thread with direct knowledge of what happens in schools and how other schools deal with disabled pupils who are telling you that you are mistaken. Other schools really do manage these trips without the hopeless attitude to reasonable adjustment duties that you claim, and I'm quite sure they are no better off financially. The adjustment she is asking for essentially come down to keeping an eye on her child to stop her over-exerting herself, and administering painkillers when necessary. If a school can't organise its finances sufficient to do that much, it is seriously failing.

And that potentially includes the disabled children. How much of a holiday is it for them if no-one is looking after them to prevent t,hem incurring serious pain or if they are made to sit by the side watching all the other children doing stuff that they, the disabled kids, could take part in perfectly well if the school just complied with its duties and offered a bit of help?

I think your imagination is deceiving you.

How much time and money does it need to tell a parent that they can enforce SEN provision through a judicial review threat and give them, say, SOS SEN's phone number? Again, if a school can't do that, I seriously question whether they should be in business.

sossen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Judicial-Review-SOSSEN-.pdf

Yes, sadly it appears that @Pumperthepumper is one of those school employees who think they don't have to abide by the 2010 Equality Act if they can't afford it or don't have the staff or resources to do so. They are mistaken, as they would find out pretty damn fast if they tried to take this attitude into some sort of tribunal hearing, or tried to make such an argument to Ofsted. I sympathise with the staffing/funding problems, really I do, but the answer is not to ignore disability discrimination legislation. It beggars belief that they think most schools run non-inclusive residential trips.

She is, however, correct to say that school employees cannot be instructed to administer invasive treatment such as epipens or insulin pens/syringes. Not in law, at least. What generally happens in my experience is that a TA or school office worker kindly volunteers to take on the responsibility. Failing that, if a diabetes regime requires a lunchtime injection (they don't always), either a parent or a DSN has to go into the school to do it.

Mountain out of a molehill. Just keep her at home during the residential.

She is, however, correct to say that school employees cannot be instructed to administer invasive treatment such as epipens or insulin pens/syringes.

Teachers cannot be made to, but support staff can specifically be contracted on the basis that this is one of their duties. It really cannot be left on a voluntary basis, otherwise children who need things like epipens just wouldn't be able to go to school.

School trips!

If kid wants to go that's fine if thry don't that's equally fine. Schools can't insist that's nonsense. Do what's right for your kid.

School is a infinitesimal time of their life. Put it in its place. You are the parent you know what's best for you kid not teachers

Bit of a shame if she can't go on a trip she wants to go on, just because the school doesn't want to comply with the law?

They may say it's compulsory, but it's not!

Just say no. They can't do a thing.

@Y4GoingAway have you had a meeting with the SENCO yet? Sometimes they can override decisions, and they are responsible for reasonable adjustments and making sure your DD's needs are met.

Have you spoken with the TA that works 1 2 1 with her? Will she keep an eye on her?

Some things that might mitigate her condition ,help her do it safely and that you can suggest to the school. Since she really wants to go , and you seem to want her to go too, but safely. Sometimes having a plan/suggestions helps.

Will they let you provide books/colouring/puzzles / card games /similar activities that she could do while "watching "? This wouldn't require any extra supervision since it was their plan anyways and DD can just say she fancies reading a book/is tired.

Can she swap groups around so can do an activity that is less taxing twice for example, rather than everything?

Is your DD capable of taking her meds herself? Will they allow this ?

Will they keep in contact with you/allow you to contact them in the evenings so you can check in on her?

If you can have the time off, can you volunteer as a helper, and as such make sure your DD's needs are met?

Or if not possible, I know it's a long way away but if everyone agrees could you go there every other day and check in?

Can you find some excuses that your DD would be happy to use so she can sit out things without having to make her condition obvious with peers(head ache,sore tummy, didn't sleep well/tired) Or one of the adults could give her little jobs to do like taking pictures, looking after the equipment,keeping score etc.? At the end of the day, if she wants to go she also needs to take a bit of responsibility for her health as well. Recognise the signs and just take a break before it gets too worse.

If worst case happens, will you be allowed to go and pick her up and then keep her home to recover?

Exactly what happened to us - teacher who just had absolutely no will whatsoever to even TRY to support DD2 in her class - to the point she shoved her in the back corner to be able to ignore her better. Pretty much every child I know of who has some form of SEN (note I mentioned the children "I know of" and that I know of them via parents chatting at the school gates and parties etc) has ended up being moved out of that school as the will to even try to support these kids is not there. And for DD2 it was things needed like her being able to write down the task she was being set in a notebook when it was being talked through - not anything onerous upon the teachers.

OP it sounds like the school has absolutely no will to even try to meet you and make this work - which is just bang out of line, especially since you're not asking for anything exceptional - just prescribed pain relief (so not even Calpol bought OTC or similar) to be given when required, and support being given for her to pace herself and not push too hard without feeling singled out... which really does not take a lot - thinking of something that DD could "help" with or similar - even just sitting with the itinerary before the trip and highlighting the things she feels she wants to cope with, and then thinking through what she might want to do in her downtime - doesn't require much more than a will to include a little child.

The Y4 too young thing - my kids' school takes them on a residential from Y4 up (so Y4-6 all go together... tiny school) IF they want to go - the ones staying behind generally get a fun week of activities covered by supply but with the odd session where they get to go and "help" in with the younger class - which is the ultimate fun for them because they get to play with their stuff again.

If the OP's daughter stays back won't the 2 TA's that work with her 1-2-1 for 10 hours each need to stay at school to as that provision is in her EHCP? Which will make the ratios for the whole trip out.

With some reasonable planning the trip can work the daughter picks 1 activity a day and then the second activity is less strenuous or she is ground support/ proving leadership.

I wonder if because she is mobile (not just a wheelchair/uses crutches) people unconsciously underplay the impacts.