Do those who voted Tory not realise if acutely unwell they will need A&E as no equivalent in the private sector?

[Blondewithredlips]

Just that they will have the same problems accessing A&E and ambulances as others without private health insurance. And they voted for this?

I'd like actual hard amounts. How much every year is going to be enough? and if it isn't ever enough, why isn't it? because it seems to me that if the NHS is in crisis however much is pumped into it, then that suggests it's not the money that's the problem.

Westminster largely controls the money though, so we're pretty much just rearranging chairs on the Titanic. Plus you can't compare Wales to England, different population (older, iller, poorer), different needs.

Post Brexit and Covid everything has generally gone to shit everywhere in the UK, but prior to that, Wales had less of a crisis in social care than England, and there is really no pint at looking at the problems the NHS faces if you don't look at social care as well.

Plus you can't compare Wales to England, different population (older, iller, poorer), different needs.

This doesn’t fill me with confidence re what a long term Labour has achieved - if iller and poorer

stop being so lazy and blaming the tories. this started way way back. the new GP contracts, Blairs PPI for hospitals etc. successive govts of both rosette colours have ignored the fact that the actual institution is no longer fit for purpose. But NONE of them, not labour, conservative or any other parties has the balls to actually sit down with a blank sheet of paper and start again. why do we hold this broken down clapped out crap health care as some sort of sacrosanct sacred cow when it really is not. its inefficient, it is resistant to change and it just needs starting again. Fed up of the tories bad/labour good rhetoric from people too lazy to read the history of this and too stupid to realise that labour will not make a scrap of difference to this when they are in power. Blair had the chance he blew it. why do you think starmer is any different.

I think people are stupid if they think the problems are just down to Tory funding

Problems are multi faceted from funding , our expectations ,the complexity of treatment and conditions as well as the population being more responsible for there health

throw money at it all day long you will never fix it In it’s current form

unfortunately people aren’t bright enough to look past blaming tories rather than the full picture

People are right to blame the Blair/Brown years for the current mess. The NHS cannot be sorted out in a few years, even if everyone decided they were happy to pay 50% of income in tax to fund the NHS properly it would take decades to get it anywhere near what we want. Today we're reaping the results of what Labour did twenty years ago. The consequences of the austerity years (which were themselves caused by Labour) will only be felt in another ten years or so.

This is a symptom of our short term view. People vote based on the recent past. This leads to unstable governments which change every few years. If we want to sort the NHS out, we need to accept that it needs a long term plan that doesn't get tinkered with every time there's a new government.

For 12 out of the 13 years of the last Labour government, they spent less than 7% of GDP on the NHS.
The Conservatives have spent more than 7% of GDP every year they have currently been in office.
If you want to bash the tories, OP, at least get your facts straight first.

I’m so tired of reading the myth that the NHS is a bottomless money pit. It makes me sad that so many people have fallen for this lie.

No one’s saying there’s no waste and mismanagement within the NHS. However, if you look at how much different countries spend on healthcare per capita, you will see a long list of countries who pay more than us. This includes most of Western Europe, the USA, Canada and Australia.

www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/154e8143-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/154e8143-en

Why are we even talking about Labour. It's the Tories that have been in power for years and fucked the health care system!

The older bit is relevant as well. An older population, by definition, will be less healthy, and some of that will be work related.

What can I say. Things improved hugely after Labour came into power in '97 and have plummeted since the Conservatives were in power again. There is a limit to what the Welsh Government can do if there's no will from Westminster to bring about change, and since when have the Tories cared about Wales?

Depends on perspective. Some look to 90s when we were on the upward swing of a global boom - which fed into a huge bust. Different times, no pandemic or war plus PFI deferring costs and think yes that’s going to be what Labour deliver in this climate. But they don’t look at the 70s when strikes crumbled Labour either.

Or they can think Wales not looking great, keeps voting Labour in - people getting poorer and iller, education not great either.

All I can say is if / when Labour get in it’s not closer to Wales reality otherwise we’re in the mire more than now.

Buddy of mine went to GP with sore throat.
Was referred to hospital immediately by GP.
Saw consultants 2 days later.
Radiotherapy started 10 days after first GP visit.
When he said to the doctor how impressed and surprised i he was the consultant said
"do not believe what you see on the BBC or read in the Guardian"
As the doctor said the BBC and Guardian pick up on people who have not had a great experience as happens in any organisation.
They never ever report or have an interview with my buddy who has had a great response from the NHS and thinks it is wonderful.

Has Tory HQ sent out some sort of memo asking all their members to start spouting off about Labour and PFI this month?

Over the last year or so the tories and their goon squad have blamed covid, flu/winter bugs, Europe, migration, the economy, GPs, junior doctors, nurses, NHS admin staff, the elderly, the general public, and the unions for the state of the NHS. Now they're really scraping the barrel and blaming PFI contracts from over 20 years ago.

Essentially, they'll blame anything but the 12 years of deliberate underfunding and mismanagement from their years in power. It's genuinely embarrassing now.

Oddly enough, all these posters who suddenly lay the blame at the door of labour 20 years ago make no mention that one of the main reasons PFI contracts came about was because the tories had severely underfunded the NHS the last time they were in power and had left it in tatters (reoccurring theme). Wonder why the retrospective blame placing only goes back to 1997?

Good to see the call from Labour woke you up.

The fact she is responsible for the mess in Scotland, has tax raising powers, doesn’t pass on increases received for the nhs to the nhs, etc doesn’t stop Nicola Sturgeon blaming the Tories/Westminster.

I am not sure how that dispels the ‘myth’ that health is not a bottomless money pit. Individuals in USA spend huge amounts on healthcare but healthcare is still inaccessible to great swaths of the population. Surely the USA just confirms it is a bottomless pit?

I remember a number of years ago a programme where a ‘business guru’ went into a hospital to try an improve things. He was either allocated or was picked up by a surgeon. You could see as soon as the business guru entered the room, the surgeon saw it as an opportunity to set about empire building. He went on about all the barriers he could see to his practice and how he could treat more people if x,y and z. The business guru fell for this and together they spent his time planning his improvements to present to the board. Then the business guru bumped into the infection control nurse and the scales were pulled from his eyes. At the end of the program his was furious that he had wasted so much time on x, y, z when speaking to others it was clear that there was good reason for much of what the surgeon was complaining about.

How many of them are in the demographic that need healthcare the most? They're not exactly the age where they fall easily for example.

The US system is bloated and inefficient, which doesn’t bode well for the Tory plan to outsource some of the NHS to American healthcare companies.

How about we fund our healthcare to the same level per capita as France or Germany?

Their parents will be. And yes Tories love their parents as much as Labour do.

It is not just about funding.

YABFU to start yet another thread about how much of a bastard every Tory voter is.

If you can't see how unhelpful it is to take this angle repeatedly - it's thread after thread after thread on MN - then god help us.

The NHS is a shit show no matter how much money goes in. 'More money in' does not directly correlate with 'better services out'. There are all sorts of issues that need to be addressed and they're not all directly attributable to all Tories being evil.

And no, I'm not a Conservative voter (not that I should need to justify myself).

I didn’t say it was. But it would be a start. And yes, anyone wanting to reform the NHS should listen to staff at all levels about what works well and which changes would make it easier for them to do their jobs.

@Cattenberg

...the Tory plan to outsource some of the NHS to American healthcare companies.

Where are you getting this info from? What's your source?