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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

There is no god

1000 replies

OldKingCole · 02/01/2023 19:02

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority.
would be interested to see the MN response.

IABU - there is a god
IANBU - there is no god

OP posts:
poweredbysteam · 07/01/2023 18:32

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 17:51

Those protesting not only brought the gay issue to the fore, they also continued the debate.🤣🤣
Personally I quoted scripture. I haven't even given my own opinion on the matter.
There's a clear difference between what the bible says and what the various religions say.

No, I think the religious institutions that prosecuted gay people for centuries brought it to the fore. Not to mention the poster who keeps coming back to post homophobic bile.

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 18:33

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 18:31

It doesn't matter which version. The scriptures are all saying the same thing.

biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
I didn't engage with that point when you mentioned it before.

biblehub.com/parallel/1_corinthians/6-9.htm

Even more versions.

pointythings · 07/01/2023 18:38

@PrincessConstance the biblical scriptures are documents written by human beings, much translated, much redacted over two thousand years. If you believe there is a single correct version that we should all be following, you're dreaming.

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 18:39

poweredbysteam · 07/01/2023 18:32

No, I think the religious institutions that prosecuted gay people for centuries brought it to the fore. Not to mention the poster who keeps coming back to post homophobic bile.

Who are you replying to?

The thread changed direction onto the bibles opinion on Homosexuality. Some answered, then some carried that debate on. That's what I was replying to.
Not whether the churches were responsible for persecuting gay people.

Talk about misdirection.
This thread was originally about the existence of a GOD.

poweredbysteam · 07/01/2023 18:42

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 18:39

Who are you replying to?

The thread changed direction onto the bibles opinion on Homosexuality. Some answered, then some carried that debate on. That's what I was replying to.
Not whether the churches were responsible for persecuting gay people.

Talk about misdirection.
This thread was originally about the existence of a GOD.

Erm... you, that's why I quoted you.

It's not completely left field that a thread about god would naturally evolve into a discussion about the treatment of gay people by religions. You are free to ignore these posts instead of posting insane hypotheticals.

pointythings · 07/01/2023 18:42

@PrincessConstance you're right, the thread was originally about the existence of god. (why do you use all caps? That's a very US fundamentalist way of writing it).

But when that question arises, it is inevitably followed by questions of objective proof (there's none) and questions of whether god is worthy of our worship given the world we are living in and the things he/she permits us to do in his/her name. That's just how it goes. The persecution of homosexuals and the oppression of women are the two biggest ones that make people question and turn to atheism.

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 18:54

pointythings · 07/01/2023 18:38

@PrincessConstance the biblical scriptures are documents written by human beings, much translated, much redacted over two thousand years. If you believe there is a single correct version that we should all be following, you're dreaming.

I don't believe there's one version at all. However, whatever version you choose to use, the scriptures say the same thing.
Here's the original Greek version for you to analyze.

biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/6.htm

pointythings · 07/01/2023 19:01

But they don't all mean the same thing. This has already been explained to you earlier in the thread. Depending on how you translate key words and phrases, the meaning is very different. Translation is complex and not an exact science. It is therefore impossible to say what those key phrases, especially those used by the anti-gay lobby, were actually intended to mean when they were written. This is what those of us who are not biblical literalists object to: the way a particular interpretation of the scriptures is used against certain groups of people when there is no proof that this interpretation is what was originally intended.

Beyond that of course, we no longer live in the late Iron Age. The world is very different now, and literally applying laws and mores from 2000 years ago to a society they were never intended for is foolish and leads to disastrous oppression. Laws have changed and been rewritten for as long as we have had written sources and more than likely beyond because people change and societies change. Bibilical literalists may not like that or want that, but it is inevitable. If you want to live by the letter of your scripture, you will have to start a commune somewhere rather than trying to turn the clock back on an entire world and think this is a good thing to do.

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 19:05

pointythings · 07/01/2023 18:42

@PrincessConstance you're right, the thread was originally about the existence of god. (why do you use all caps? That's a very US fundamentalist way of writing it).

But when that question arises, it is inevitably followed by questions of objective proof (there's none) and questions of whether god is worthy of our worship given the world we are living in and the things he/she permits us to do in his/her name. That's just how it goes. The persecution of homosexuals and the oppression of women are the two biggest ones that make people question and turn to atheism.

If you wish to ignore logical premises or overwhelming weight of evidences then that's up to you.
It makes no difference either way.
Appeals to emotion (pathos) are a fallacy and not a valid reason to dismiss the existence of a GOD.

Forgooodnesssakenow · 07/01/2023 19:05

Yeah, Ireland's a special case. Same by the way but lived in Scotland since I was 18 whole different world

ErrolTheDragon · 07/01/2023 19:06

pointythings · 07/01/2023 18:38

@PrincessConstance the biblical scriptures are documents written by human beings, much translated, much redacted over two thousand years. If you believe there is a single correct version that we should all be following, you're dreaming.

Redacted and augmented - a few key points in the New Testament (including the only definitively Trinitarian bit) were added non contemporaneously.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/01/2023 19:13

Appeals to emotion (pathos) are a fallacy and not a valid reason to dismiss the existence of a GOD.

Nor to assume one, which is what many people do - I would have said far more that way around.

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 19:14

pointythings · 07/01/2023 19:01

But they don't all mean the same thing. This has already been explained to you earlier in the thread. Depending on how you translate key words and phrases, the meaning is very different. Translation is complex and not an exact science. It is therefore impossible to say what those key phrases, especially those used by the anti-gay lobby, were actually intended to mean when they were written. This is what those of us who are not biblical literalists object to: the way a particular interpretation of the scriptures is used against certain groups of people when there is no proof that this interpretation is what was originally intended.

Beyond that of course, we no longer live in the late Iron Age. The world is very different now, and literally applying laws and mores from 2000 years ago to a society they were never intended for is foolish and leads to disastrous oppression. Laws have changed and been rewritten for as long as we have had written sources and more than likely beyond because people change and societies change. Bibilical literalists may not like that or want that, but it is inevitable. If you want to live by the letter of your scripture, you will have to start a commune somewhere rather than trying to turn the clock back on an entire world and think this is a good thing to do.

Maybe the anti gay lobby is older than the bible.😂

Your post is absurd.
I've posted the ancient Greek and the globally recognised and accepted translation of those writings yet you still won't accept you're incorrect.
The sheer sophistry is bizarre.
That particular passage is very explicit, to suggest it's open for debate is odd.
Just accept what it says and move on, that particular script is not an allegory.

Hawkins001 · 07/01/2023 19:22

Why do some humans prefer to enslave their mind to a mythological being ?

ErrolTheDragon · 07/01/2023 19:22

Yeah, the Bible is an anachronistic homophobic, misogynistic text, riddled with internal inconsistencies.
I've completely lost track of who was trying to use it to prove what.

pointythings · 07/01/2023 19:24

The original source text was not written in Greek, so you are still talking about a translation. Translations are always open to debate, which is why new ones are constantly being written for all kinds of ancient texts. Just because you have chosen to view yours as 'correct' that doesn't mean it is. That's a leap of faith you have taken. Which is your prerogative.

And yes, lots of very reputable theologians have 'proved' that God exists - but their arguments start from a premise that a god exists. There's no possible hypothesis that can be tested. Your assertion that there is a god is as valid as my assertion that we are just an experiment in a giant petri dish, being conducted in an alien laboratory. We can't know and we don't know. It's all about belief. You can accuse me of sophistry if it makes you happy.

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 19:25

Is there a GOD?
No.
Why not?
Because they're not nice.

Ah so something that doesn't exist is not nice.🙄😂

ShodanLives · 07/01/2023 19:27

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 19:25

Is there a GOD?
No.
Why not?
Because they're not nice.

Ah so something that doesn't exist is not nice.🙄😂

You really don't see how the state of the world and the actions of the religious might cause someone to start questioning their faith?

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 19:28

pointythings · 07/01/2023 19:24

The original source text was not written in Greek, so you are still talking about a translation. Translations are always open to debate, which is why new ones are constantly being written for all kinds of ancient texts. Just because you have chosen to view yours as 'correct' that doesn't mean it is. That's a leap of faith you have taken. Which is your prerogative.

And yes, lots of very reputable theologians have 'proved' that God exists - but their arguments start from a premise that a god exists. There's no possible hypothesis that can be tested. Your assertion that there is a god is as valid as my assertion that we are just an experiment in a giant petri dish, being conducted in an alien laboratory. We can't know and we don't know. It's all about belief. You can accuse me of sophistry if it makes you happy.

I'm off to watch strike.
Your replies are fallacious.

ShodanLives · 07/01/2023 19:30

PrincessConstance · 07/01/2023 19:28

I'm off to watch strike.
Your replies are fallacious.

And yours pretentious.

pointythings · 07/01/2023 19:35

ShodanLives · 07/01/2023 19:30

And yours pretentious.

I'm going with 'in line with the delusions of the faithful'.

They are masters of the circular argument. Also of the childish - nobody on this thread has said 'God isn't real because he/she isn't nice'. Another strawman from the representative of the faithful.

Herroyal · 07/01/2023 20:17

‘Those protesting not only brought the gay issue to the fore, they also continued the debate.’

there is no ‘gay issue’
Our existence is not an ‘issue’ ,
we are not a problem to be solved or dealt with.
And the obsession with some religious people about LGBTQ + people is frankly,
utterly bizarre.

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 07/01/2023 20:41

The word in corinthians that supposedly means homosexual is arsenokoitai, a word which Paul invented and used twice in the new testament. It doesn't appear in contemporary texts and he never explained the meaning of the words. So it's actually quite presumptuous to claim it definitely means something when language scholars are still debating it.

The assumption that it means homosexual is because the two parts of the word translate into male and bed. However that alone is not enough to claim it means homosexual, after all butterflies are not made of butter or flies, cupboards are not boards that only store cups and dishcloths are not dishes made of cloth. So male-bed is not absolutely certainly to do with men in bed.

Now whilst the whole word is something Paul invented, arsen and koiten were older words that were used to describe peadopholia or abuse. So it's thought to be likely in some churches/by some translators that Paul was actually condemning the use of power/sex for abusive purposes.

And let's not forget it was in corinthians marital rape was condoned/encouraged

But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. Gor the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.

So perhaps Christian posters who are homophobic on here should be arguing vehemently about the laws around marital rape instead of implying gay relationships should be made illegal as per some of the deleted posts earlier in the thread. Or is it not as fun to be so 'literal' when it actually impacts you directly?

pointythings · 07/01/2023 20:59

@Letitrainletitrainletitrain your scholarship is much appreciated, not that @PrincessConstance will take any notice of anything resembling evidence...

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 07/01/2023 21:21

pointythings · 07/01/2023 20:59

@Letitrainletitrainletitrain your scholarship is much appreciated, not that @PrincessConstance will take any notice of anything resembling evidence...

It irritates me when people pick and choose to justify bigotry

For example in corinthians, which is what some posters are adamant that Christians should be following Paul also wrote

1 Corinthians 5:12 NIV
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?

I would say there are a few Christian posters who might want to bear that one in mind as well

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