Page 24 | There is no god

OldKingCole · 2023-01-02T19:02:17+00:00

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority. would be interested to see the MN response. IABU - there is a god IANBU - there is no god

EndlessRain1 · 04/01/2023 12:30

38woman · 04/01/2023 12:25

I think it was late and thinking, I'd be sad if there wasn't something I mean. I like your post though, we should all be happy with our choice.

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I bet a lot of the people who have been persecuted, oppressed and abused in the same of orgasnised religion throughout history are/were a lot more sad than you are.

WedonttalkaboutMaureen · 04/01/2023 12:45

pointythings · 02/01/2023 22:30

@Rollin the believers who think that we atheists must all be miserable, selfish awful people are the ones I find unbearably arrogant. Fortunately none of my theist friends hold this view.

I've met several arrogant smug preaching Christians who firmly believe they are "better" people. Such a great example for their religion, NOT!

WedonttalkaboutMaureen · 04/01/2023 13:08

@Inspecto you've quoted one version of the Oath. None of my many friends in health professions took that one - the no abortion bit is unforgivable and wrong to all of them, who believe that women are worth more than just churning out babies even at risk of death - there are various versions.

I'm sure you're aware of that of course and not trying to mislead anyone that the oath you've quoted is "the one and only" that governs medical ethics - that would a naughty thing to do wouldn't it?

EndlessRain1 · 04/01/2023 13:12

I listened to something on the radio where someone was querying whether morality was possible without religion, and if religion was disappearing from society (which I think it is largely) how do we find our moral compass. That was super odd and the wrong way around to me, as if the notion of right and wrong comes from religion or the bible. Surely it's just that the bible set out what was considered moral at the time. We don't need someone claiming to speak to god to tell us what is right and wrong.

WedonttalkaboutMaureen · 04/01/2023 13:45

Arseulaundress · 03/01/2023 18:16

The important thing about this thread is that the believers come across as irrational, judgemental arseholes.

Yup

pointythings · 04/01/2023 13:45

@EndlessRain1 I see morality as an evolutionary construct. Having laws and morals is conducive to the survival of the species, anarchy is not. Religion is just the narrative that has been draped over it all. It isn't necessary, it's window dressing. We do need laws around not committing murder/rape/acts of violence. We need property laws. We need laws that prevent exploitation of the weaker by the stronger. Beyond that we need to leave people the hell alone.

Livetoplay · 04/01/2023 14:09

‘The important thing about this thread is that the believers come across as irrational, judgemental arseholes.’

They unfortunately.
IRL I know lots of church goers who just get on with it and don’t seem to feel the need to preach to others, be homophobic,
judge others or pity non-church goers.
I think for a lot of people modern faith is becoming something more personal and less Communal in many ways. Not a bad thing IMHO given the record of organised religion of harming their own followers.

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 04/01/2023 14:14

The Piraha tribe in the amazon do not believe in God. Crime is rare, violence is rare, anger is rare, they are generally a happy, patient and kind people.

The president of Brazil meanwhile states his is a Christian and is advocating for opening up the rainforest and destroying the Piraha's home for profit.

Religion is not a marker of an individuals morality, lack of faith is not a marker of an individuals lack of morality.

PrincessConstance · 04/01/2023 14:15

pointythings · 03/01/2023 20:56

@ValK I just knew that you were going to come up with HIV and the like.

HIV is extremely treatable these days, and people live normal lives with the virus. So why is it worse than chlamydia, gonorrhoea, herpes, and syphilis, which are diseases that can arise from promiscuity in both gay and straight populations? How does this affect the whole of society? What is the cost of PREP to the NHS as compared to the cost of treating other lifestyle diseases like obesity-induced diabetes, cancer caused by smoking/drinking, major injuries caused by drunkenness? And why are they not just as bad?

Then there is the question of what you're going to do about making homosexuality illegal. Are you going to put people caught having consensual gay sex in jail? Are you going to do the same to lesbians, even though their health outcomes are not in the same league? Are you going to extend the illegality to sexual relationships between people who are not married, and impose on them the same punishment? That would be 'equality', but that would make us as bad as countries like Iran and the like. Is that what you want to see?

You offer very simple thoughts, but you don't appear to ask yourself what the consequences might be of having what is in effect a theocracy. Which is odd, because all you have to do is look at what's happening in countries all around the world. Regimes founded on religion are oppressive and undemocratic.

On marriage, why is a marriage between a gay couple not the same as a marriage between a straight couple? Both can have children and raise them by a variety or routes. I agree that surrogacy is problematic, but other routes such as adoption are not. Why do you want to deny gay couples something straight people take for granted?

In the post I originally responded to, you did not differentiate in any way between incest and homosexuality in terms of their negative impact on society. Hence my assumption that you think they are equally bad.

Both can have children and raise them by a variety or routes. I agree that surrogacy is problematic, but other routes such as adoption are not. Why do you want to deny gay couples something straight people take for granted?

Homosexuals cannot have children via the route taken by the majority of heterosexuals. If the population suddenly had an overwhelming shift to homosexual preferences the population would shrink and die out.
Do the math.
Effect on the population.
The cost of science-led artificial insemination.

This is way off-topic.
I believe there is a GOD so does DP.

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 04/01/2023 14:26

PrincessConstance · 04/01/2023 14:15

Both can have children and raise them by a variety or routes. I agree that surrogacy is problematic, but other routes such as adoption are not. Why do you want to deny gay couples something straight people take for granted?

Homosexuals cannot have children via the route taken by the majority of heterosexuals. If the population suddenly had an overwhelming shift to homosexual preferences the population would shrink and die out.
Do the math.
Effect on the population.
The cost of science-led artificial insemination.

This is way off-topic.
I believe there is a GOD so does DP.

Show quote history

People are destroying the planet. If God is the God of everything in nature, maybe homosexuality is part of his plan in order to reduce the population?

Meanwhile there are 153 million orphans worldwide so I think we are okay for a bit!

10% of the population being gay is not going to shrink and kill the population. And both straight and gay couples use fertility treatments so that irrelevant.

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 14:29

About 10% of animals engage in homosexual behaviour which says to me if there was a God then he in his wisdom and transcendent state which we cannot comprehend, clearly created being gay and there is a purpose to it.

As a psychologist it is obvious to me why people need spirituality or religion but science and politics have made inroads into this. Problem is without religion some very strange belief systems emerge such as the cult of individualism and gender ideology.

Remember Hitler was a Christian, didn't seem to help with his morality.

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 14:31

I also teach RE and many if the comments on here show why we do need to teach it. One Christian literally thought their god was a different god to Judaism seemingly missing the whole point of the incarnation of christ and the Holy trinity in that god now understands what it is the be human and so has a more forgiving attitude as it were.

EndlessRain1 · 04/01/2023 14:35

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 14:29

About 10% of animals engage in homosexual behaviour which says to me if there was a God then he in his wisdom and transcendent state which we cannot comprehend, clearly created being gay and there is a purpose to it.

As a psychologist it is obvious to me why people need spirituality or religion but science and politics have made inroads into this. Problem is without religion some very strange belief systems emerge such as the cult of individualism and gender ideology.

Remember Hitler was a Christian, didn't seem to help with his morality.

Some might say that religion in itself is a strange belief system.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/01/2023 14:50

Some might say that religion in itself is a strange belief system

Or rather, lots of mutually contradictory ones.

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 14:52

I thought my post made it quite clear I don't believe their is a god.

EndlessRain1 · 04/01/2023 14:54

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 14:52

I thought my post made it quite clear I don't believe their is a god.

If that response was to me, I am refering to your statement:

"Problem is without religion some very strange belief systems emerge such as the cult of individualism and gender ideology."

You make it sound like you need religion to avoid strange belief systems when actually, you might argue, religion itself is one.

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 14:59

Ah sorry I mean humans will always form belief systems as a part of our psychology. Our brains are wired that way. None of them are real rather ways to communicate socially.

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 15:00

Agree all religions are strange

BarkAscending · 04/01/2023 15:14

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 14:59

Ah sorry I mean humans will always form belief systems as a part of our psychology. Our brains are wired that way. None of them are real rather ways to communicate socially.

I think this is right, humans are evolved to form an allegiance to an overarching belief system. It’s a way for us to bond and belong within a social group. These beliefs may be secular or spiritual. The evidence base for these beliefs, whether secular or religious, appears to be unimportant to the success of the belief system.

The important thing about this thread is that the believers come across as irrational, judgemental arseholes
Really? I only read the first pages, but back them it was the atheists who were coming across like this through believing they were smarter than people of faith.

Boomboom22 · 04/01/2023 16:13

Yes exactly sofar some people belonging to a political party or feminism or whatever is their equivalent of religion. Some atheists are humanist and some believe twaw and some believe in q anon. The belief system is more about social identity.

Livetoplay · 04/01/2023 16:26

‘Homosexuals cannot have children via the route taken by the majority of heterosexuals. If the population suddenly had an overwhelming shift to homosexual preferences the population would shrink and die out.
Do the math.

Effect on the population.’

oh, I do LOVE being referred to as a homosexual.
I’m a homosexual with kids, and I know lots of other LGBTQ +’families. So here’s what we do - we use donors, sometimes straight people donors, sometimes gay donors, sometimes anonymous donors -
and then we have kids!
So IF there was an overwhelming shift to being gay, don’t worry, we’ll still have babies. Lots of them.
It’s really not that different, and turns out being gay doesn’t actually mean you don’t want to have children.

Livetoplay · 04/01/2023 16:26

And it doesn’t take IVF either. Quite literally some sperm in a syringe does the job.

BrownEyedGhoul · 04/01/2023 16:31

Livetoplay · 04/01/2023 16:26

‘Homosexuals cannot have children via the route taken by the majority of heterosexuals. If the population suddenly had an overwhelming shift to homosexual preferences the population would shrink and die out.
Do the math.

Effect on the population.’

oh, I do LOVE being referred to as a homosexual.
I’m a homosexual with kids, and I know lots of other LGBTQ +’families. So here’s what we do - we use donors, sometimes straight people donors, sometimes gay donors, sometimes anonymous donors -
and then we have kids!
So IF there was an overwhelming shift to being gay, don’t worry, we’ll still have babies. Lots of them.
It’s really not that different, and turns out being gay doesn’t actually mean you don’t want to have children.

If you're a woman....

carbonarya · 04/01/2023 16:46

PrincessConstance · 04/01/2023 14:15

Both can have children and raise them by a variety or routes. I agree that surrogacy is problematic, but other routes such as adoption are not. Why do you want to deny gay couples something straight people take for granted?

Homosexuals cannot have children via the route taken by the majority of heterosexuals. If the population suddenly had an overwhelming shift to homosexual preferences the population would shrink and die out.
Do the math.
Effect on the population.
The cost of science-led artificial insemination.

This is way off-topic.
I believe there is a GOD so does DP.

Show quote history

But the population has not suddenly had an overwhelming shift to homosexual preferences, so what's the problem?

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 04/01/2023 17:08

carbonarya · 04/01/2023 16:46

But the population has not suddenly had an overwhelming shift to homosexual preferences, so what's the problem?

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I believe the problem is how to invent excuses to persecute gay people in the name of religion

Meanwhile Jesus said nothing against gay people, told us not to call others unclean or impure.

In Samuel, David says of Jonathan: “Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.” (2 Samuel 1:26).

And the verse that people often like to quote as being the one where homosexuality is apparently condemned:

“Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” The literal translation of the original Hebrew, however, is “And with male you shall not lie lyings woman.” The word translated as “lyings” is found elsewhere only in Genesis 49:4, where it refers to incest. In Leviticus, this verse comes in a list of prohibitions against having sex with family members, so it is reasonable to conclude that it is a prohibition against incest.

And in some versions of the bible there is another verse that refrwbces homosexuals but actually a better translation of the word is men who sleep with enslaved male prostitutes. The word homosexual actually only made it into translations from 1948 onwards so its a modern prejudice that has crept in