To say no - relatives child

[littlepercy]

I'm feeling pretty awful about this so wanted to get some opinions.

My SIL and her husband are a mess and always have been. They have recently had their 4 year old daughter removed from them for reasons I won't go into here. They are hoping to get her back living with them eventually but when that will be who knows (if ever).

SIL is DHs only sibling and therefore DN is his only niece too. His parents are elderly and cannot help. We are being asked to take DN indefinitely to avoid more permenant foster care.

We have 2 DC together, a DS who is 3 and a DD who is 6. I am a SAHM and DH works full time.

We technically have the room here but I don't think this is something I could cope with, I'd be essentially on my own dealing with this as DH would be at work. Understandably DN is showing troubling behaviour too due to all the upheaval.

DH feeling under pressure from his sister and feels awful saying no but understands as it's me who'd be expected to do most stuff day to day then it's really down to me.

@Lovelysausagedogscrumpy I completely agree, but there aren’t enough experienced foster carers.

I don't disagree. I never once said it was her responsibility, and I even said I wouldn't do it either. I was responding to a previous poster who was saying the OP cares about the child.

But would that be in the best interest of any of the children or would it be to make you feel like you where doing something.

Yea local authorities can pay a fostering allowance for a kinship placement, thought they will try not to.

Many family’s in this circumstance have children on an SGO, you can also get some payments with these.

Yup. Years ago we had a little girl at school that was in foster care after a similar background . We had 3 121 TAs quit because of her behaviour, one of them actually had a mental breakdown(albeit SLT were also at fault ).They were punched ,hit,spat on,bitten,stabbed with pencils and scissors. Her classmates were often hurt too.

These were people with some experience and training that were only with her 6 hours a day.

She could be really sweet and a typical 5 year old, but also full of fear,pain,heartbreak and rage at the world. She couldn't regulate , and in the moment she just saw red. She was with a foster family that had no other children for obvious reason. She did improve massively , but it took years , trauma informed parenting and a specific setup conductive to learning and healing. They actually ended up adopting her which was lovely.

To just assume OP ,her family,her children could safely manage such a child and have the experience to keep her and themselves safe and also help her heal , just because they're blood is ridiculous emotional blackmail. It's not even the risk to OP, but the very real possibility of damaging this little girl even further through lack of understanding/experience, the placement breaking down , not being able to meet her needs properly,having her in an environment that is triggering or not suitable to her needs.

Exactly.

Because of my little relative's needs, which were not all evident at the time, we cannot have babysitters at all and there are no playdates where we are not supervising (and barely any anyway). Holiday clubs are mostly not possible. We have not had a night off in years. Personally, I would do the same again, BUT it's my relative, I had a pre-existing relationship, and there aren't younger children to look out for. But my career is all but lost, my mental health shattered, many friends alienated, can't go anywhere without bring judged for their behaviour, relationship has suffered, and every day is a massive battle and a fight for support services which mainly don't exist.

Add into this that in some cases being a kinship carer is like letting a grenade off in your home - in the form of the birth parents who may also have their own mental health issues. It's easier for stranger foster carers to keep their distance from that.

I wouldn't wish the decision on anyone and I don't think there's a right answer. If you are contacted by social workers, you'll be able to get a better idea of your specific situation and what might be asked of you from them than from us on here x

FFS !! What an awful post. The OP is being realistic. She has her own family to think about. Would you risk having to have contact with the abusive parents - one of whom has a criminal history and has made threats ? Of course you wouldn’t. It’s not the the OP doesn’t care, or she wouldn’t have posted here. She’s trying to make the distinction between taking this child on out of duty, or leaving it to experienced foster parents who have the means to cope better than she can.

YANBU to be thoughtful about this. However, we are childfree by choice but there is absolutely no way I could see our nieces and nephews go into foster care when I could give them a secure and safe home. Also, if I found out my parents had sent my cousins to foster care I would never forgive them. Rightly or wrongly.

Sigh. Read what I wrote. I said I wouldn't take the child either. The child needs specialist help and support. I was responding to a poster who was saying the OP cares about the child. I was pointing out that actually, no, what the child needs isn't actually a factor in the OP's decision.

I haven't read the whole thread.
But I would ignore all the posters saying "how can you not take her? She's flesh and blood" etc.

1. The outcomes for children in the care system are not great. This is mostly because the outcomes for traumatised and abused children are not great. The care system doesn't create the issues - it's just not well supported to meaningfully deal with them. If you are not well supported to do the same (by which I mean, if you don't have the funds to pay for long and protracted therapy for this little girl, as you won't get the same funding as foster carers would) then the outcomes won't be magically better just because you're "family".
2. Kinship care is still part of the care system - just a less well funded and less well supported one.
3. I've worked with a lot of families where kinship care has been awarded over foster care. I've been in plenty of meetings where every professional is saying "this is not the best thing for these children [because they need more support etc]" but the system favours kinship care. It is not always best. In fact it often is worse. If you offer though, you are very likely to get accepted so beware of that.
4. Your children's worlds would be turned upside down. They will suffer as a result of bringing an abused and neglected child into the home. Only time will tell if that will be worth it (for them and for her); only you sky your DH know whether you're prepared to accept the risk that it might not be.
5. Fwiw, I would do it if my much-loved nephews or nieces were orphaned by their caring loving good parents. I would not do it in your circumstances. I would not be a good parent/carer to a traumatised child. I am not a patient tolerant person. I would do my best but I would fail them.
6. If it was me, I would be saying that I would not be able to give her a home. But I would be saying that I wanted to have as much access as SS thought was reasonable - so (for example) 2 visits a month to the foster carer or from her to you with the FC. This would enable a relationship to be built (you don't have one currently if you've barely met the child) and hopefully provide some positive continuity.

This is wrong

In some cases in England family can hecome approved foster carers and have the same training and allowances and support as other foster carers. They can only do so through the LA though - not other fostering organisations eg Barnardos. This means the allowances tend to be the minimum, but about 1 in 4 LA foster carers are family or friends.

I think you should do what you feel is best but don’t be in denial about the situation. Your niece is undoubtedly a traumatised 4 year old girl that needs a loving and stable home to help her but rather than open your home and your heart to helping her, you and your husband would rather have her put into care rather than adjust or take on difficulty in your current lives. That is fine. You have very reasonable reasons, such as being worried about the effect on your own children. But nevertheless, I think being honest about your choice is important. Because one day that little girl is going to grow up and maybe even question you and your husband directly about why no one in her extended family cared enough to look after her. And I personally would want to have an answer to that.

September 2021 I took on my baby DN, who was born an addict. We didn’t know my sister my pregnant, she hid it because she knew that SS would take the baby away. At the time, my own DD was coming up for 18 months.

I applied for a Kinship Order when it looked like my DN would be taken into care. It took a while to be sorted but when she came home from hospital she came to me.

I dont know if your SIL is potentially wanting her DD back, but my sister made all the right noises about wanting my DN (after rejecting her to start with) but when it came down to it she couldn’t stay away from my DN’s Dad. We’ve now not seen her for over a year.

My DD is three in April, my DN is 16 months. I’d be lying if I said it had been easy because it hasn’t. Especially dealing with a baby with drug withdrawal. But would I do it again? Yes

I would be very clear-eyed about the potential effect on my own children, and on how it might negatively impact our existing family dynamics. You must love and care for and protect them, first and foremost.

I would need full details of why the child is being removed, and if there is any plan for that to change.

I would also consider my existing relationship with SIL & partner, and whether it would be constructive and healthy for my family to be further entangled with them.

In many ways an external foster placement is cleaner, and would allow you to support all parties, or some, or not, as you judge best.

To let your niece go into foster care is not a decision I could make. You know what your family life is like, social services foster care is a total unknown. It could range from a loving family, fostering out of kindness to an abusive family, fostering for money and access to children. If you fostered her you would get support from SS, should be paid an allowance so no financial impact on you. You could establish with your husband what his input would be if YOU did agree, it's obviously unfair for you to shoulder the extra work. You have the chance to do something wonderful for this little girl, you could totally change her life for the good and show your own children how to be kind and welcoming.

its worth asking your DN what support you would be offered by childrens social care to make the placement work and what their longer term desired outcome is around permanency for your DN. if they’re taking this to court to get a care order they will have to provide enough evidence that she is not safe in her parents care and it’s unlikely that they’d be planning for her to return to them.

Contact the family rights group or at least have a look at their website to find out more about the options available to you and/or your niece. Growing up in the care system or being placed for adoption is likely to massively impact on her quality of life and long term outcomes AND for you taking on care of a child who has experienced abuse and/or neglect is a huge commitment and challenge.

I’m parent to one through adoption…I love my DC with all my heart and soul, the ripple effects of developmental trauma are countless for them and are likely to be for the rest of their life. These could have been mitigated with the protective factor of a family member being willing to take on their care but sadly none were forthcoming. Again I love my child and I also feel heartbroken for them that they didn’t get to be raised by a biological relative and that in the future they may choose to read their files and find out that no one approached wanted to take on their care.

Argh. Mumsnet just ate my post. In short I think I could be in this sit soon due to alcoholic SIL. DN is already a handful and I would have reservations but the real thing that would stop me would be the SIL and her violent (scary) ex and having to facilitate contact.

adopting him would be easier to agree to than a kinship arrangement

What the more naïve posters seem to be forgetting is that it is not SS who are asking OP to take the child, but her abusive mother, who has lost custody of her. It must be pretty bad for the child to be taken away and the mother is probably only asking her brother and his wife to take in her daughter so she can have a measure of control over the child, control she will not have if she goes to a unknown foster-carer. Given the OP's update, I seriously doubt SS would go along with this. The best thing for this child is to have a break from her parents and be given the chance to have a normal life in the home of a foster carer who is getting plenty of support to help this little girl overcome her trauma. If her parents know where she is, I guarantee they will be turning up all the time, making a carer's life hell and further traumatising this poor little girl.

Have you actually read all of ops posts,that little girl is traumatised and her father is violent.Stop with the virtue signalling.Why even mention being a single mother who works full time🤷‍♀️

I'd have to have a plan for that; as I said, I'd need strict conditions agreed to or awarded.

Every child matters. Therefore you are right in considering your children as well as niece. Don’t be emotionally blackmailed.

Yes it is fine for OP to choose against potentially blowing up her own family. That is reason, and explanation, enough. No one has grounds, now or in the future, to demand OP justify herself when she’s done absolutely nothing wrong.

I know an experienced foster carer who has had long and short term placements with children who have come from very difficult backgrounds (obviously I don’t know any history) but I know she could provide any child from a tough background with much better support than I could irrespective of blood ties.

There's a lot of people saying "if I was in that situation I'd do it" but in reality they aren't in that situation and likely never will be so it's completely unfair to past such harsh judgment on the OP here.

I don't see this as a situation where the OP and her DH want to take on their niece but they are in a situation where they feel quite rightly that cannot provide the support she needs and feel that the close proximity to her parents is inappropriate.

Just maybe this little girl would be better off with a foster carer who can provide what she needs.

@itsjakeandamy it may be different in different local authorities but where I work the chances of contact with an aunt or uncle being facilitated for a child in foster care with no plans to place them with them at that frequency is slim to none. A child in a permanent foster placement would get maybe 2-4 contact/family time visits with birth parents and if their SW and judge are particularly generous and there’s a close relationship grandparents might get a similar level. Like I say though this seems to vary from authority to authority. If an adoption order is granted then there would be letterbox contact 1-2 times a year