Men in women’s spaces

[BrightSaturn]

Just using this to rant really…

2 times in the past month I have encountered men in women only spaces.

1. I went to a feeding room to breastfeed my daughter in a shopping centre. I walked in and there were two young women in there changing their babies and one of their boyfriends just taking up one of the only chairs just sitting there, sitting using his phone. It’s a small room with 3 chairs in. I didn’t know what to do so I thought I’ll just sit down and get ready slowly and hopefully they’ll leave. I have fed in public but this was a small room so I felt vulnerable and like he shouldn’t be there and I didn’t want to lift my top up whilst he was sitting basically opposite me so I eventually asked if he could leave the room, they looked annoyed but thankfully he did go, after she looked at him and said “it’s up to you”…
2. I went into a changing room in a shop the other day with my mum, imagine a big room with seats in the middle and curtained dividers all round the outside. My mum was only trying on cardigans so really she just needed a mirror but in the middle on a seat was a boy about 17/18 years old. His girlfriend was trying on clothes. I couldn’t believe it! It wasn’t even doors on the changing rooms, just curtains. Why he thought this was acceptable I have no idea. Again I felt vulnerable and this time I didn’t have the confidence to ask him to leave. If my mum had been actually changing I would have probably found a shop assistant but still it’s not fair that we have to ask them to leave, he should not have been there in the first place!

aibu to think women’s spaces are being invaded more and more? How can we stop this from happening?

Why can't those women enlist the support of female family members instead, such as her mother, sister, best friend etc.
Why should her need triumph those of the other female patients.
Women managed many a year without their partners being there, as do single mothers.

A couple of hours ago I was furious reading some of the comments on this thread. Now I’m just unbelievably depressed.

So many women wilfully blind to the needs of other women, so dismissive of their concerns.

Having just spent a couple of days with my daughter who is struggling to feed her infant son and needs compassion, space, privacy and support, I’m sickened by the lack of understanding evident on this thread.

I probably should stop reading, it’s too distressing.

It does get you down. So many women who are willing to throw others under a bus to please males. But take heart, we’ll keep fighting this and biological reality and the lived reality of biological woman can’t be denied. We have truth on our side. For what it’s worth.

Okay I don't want to totally derail this thread and make it about postnatal wards, there have been other threads on that but I couldn't not say anything to the other poster who said "needs support" like that. As @LittlePearl said there are so many posters who are blind to the needs of other women, but some of that is coming from your side. There's a lot of dismissiveness of women who struggle without their partner present, I see it in a lot of threads. Postnatal wards are a good example of that, I don't know what the hell I would have done without my partner on the postnatal ward. I was not able to move.

So many women on this thread have told you they used mother and baby rooms that have now become ‘family feeding rooms’ but you are refusing to believe them. They are now built as ‘family’ rooms due to inclusivity but the need was always (and still is) for breastfeeding. Honestly do you really think all these rooms were made to support FF babies at the forefront? Babies that have always been fed anywhere without issue (until apparently this thread). Of course not.

Of course accommodation needs to be made for men to enable them to feed and change babies and small children otherwise we can’t easily challenge the prejudice that childcare is wimmin’s work … but not at the expense of women’s safe spaces.

… and men can fuck off right out of women’s fitting rooms. Having said that, a larger than normal single occupancy unisex fitting room would be very useful for people requiring assistance due to disability, mobility or age-related issues.

You do see that’s precisely why postnatal wards don’t allow men over night - because other women also can’t move/ are struggling to feed/ have parts of their bodies exposed/ have heavily bleeding and need a bit more than a flimsy curtain to make them feel safe and protected from other strange men. Your husband is probably lovely but the woman who is alone, crying and struggling to get a 1 hour baby to latch doesn’t know that. Nurses are supposed to be there to help.

Because she thinks men in postnatal wards are brilliant, her DH was marvellous in helping her, heck maybe he could have helped all the other vulnerable women there too, and had a good eyeful while doing it.

Firstly, the partners are there all day anyway when everybody is just as vulnerable and I don't see what difference it makes for them to be there at night as well.
Secondly, there aren't generally enough midwives around to do the amount of help the dads are doing. Maybe it was different in previous decades, I don't know. But you yourself are dismissing the needs of women who do need their partner in order to look after their baby. So I guess we're both dismissing the needs of one group of women here.

Yes DH was marvellous about helping me. Why are you saying that sarcastically? He was. And I needed him there. And no he didn't perv over the other women on the ward but you already know that.

I hope you didn't seriously think I meant all the men? For the sake of pedantry, I maybe should have put "Some men who are a significant extremely dangerous minority"

Which comes back to my question of why can't they enlist the help of their mother's, sisters or female friend.
No one is saying that the new mum doesn't need assistance, but it doesn't have to be their partner.

I'm not sure your argument is quite the gotcha that you think it is? Nobody has charted the transition of one breastfeeding space into a unisex parent space - although I'm sure it's possible. Older women who were there when it happened, are pointing out that there's a history of women fighting for specific rights (like spaces for breastfeeding women) most of which have now been dismantled so that men can access (for good reasons as fathers taking on childcare responsibilities) but with the consequence that women lost a useful resource.
Not sure why this need so many frantic denials?

That is your solution? I don't have any family who live close and I don't have any female friends who would have been free to be at hospital with me all day and all night.

Neither of those are women only spaces

@cosystripysocks

Well how do you know he didn't? You couldn't move, as you say. How do you know what he saw or didn't see, what he got a good eyeful of?

I can remember being in the postnatal ward, and there was lochia dripping everywhere and I was trying really hard to clean it up and change.. with men all around. Sure I had a curtain but it was so difficult and I felt so vulnerable.

I bet it men gave birth out of their penises, women wouldn't be allowed to be anywhere near... can you imagine? 😂

This thread is a joke now.

Sorry my children are teens now.. are partners allowed to stay the night on the postnatal ward?

They weren't allowed when I was on the postnatal ward, they had to leave by a certain time, it was lovely once they were gone, much much quieter and it was nice knowing strange men weren't just the other side of the curtain.

I get that. I am pregnant at the moment and also don’t have a mum or sister. I have no friends I would ask to support me. DP will be there for the birth but if I have to spend the night on the maternity ward my wants are not more important than the other women having a right to dignity and privacy away from strange men at the most vulnerable time of their lives. It shouldn’t be this difficult to explain.

Assuming nothing has changed since my last visit, no visitors are allowed overnight. I’m glad of it. I can’t think of anything quite as unsettling as having able bodied Mr Obnoxious chattering away behind the curtain to my right and able bodied Mr Clueless snoring to my left, less than a metre away whilst I’m partially undressed and to struggling up to get to the toilet with blood rushing down my thighs. Fuck that.

What is it with Mumsnet and "I'm not sure your argument is the gotcha you think it is"? What is a gotcha and why is my argument a gotcha and your argument not a gotcha? Is it just a fashionable way of laughing at someone's argument? I should start all my posts that way.
Anyway, the reason the OP was wrong in the first place is that if it's not labelled women only or a breastfeeding room then it isn't a women-only space. The only argument anyone has against that is that these rooms used to be breastfeeding rooms. For that to matter in this case, the specific room the OP was in WOULD have to have been a breastfeeding room in the past. Also still labelled as such otherwise how would the man know he wasn't supposed to be in there. And if it was labelled as such then it would still be a breastfeeding room. Which it isn't. So yeah your argument isn't the gotcha you think it is.

😂😂😂😂😂

Your lochia was still dripping out during the day surely? Do you think men shouldn't be there in the day either?

But WHY are those needs not more important? I could just as easily say your feelings about not having men in the room don't trump my need to have my partner there to look after the baby, and that it shouldn't be that difficult to explain!
And why are dads Mr Obnoxious and Mr Clueless? That's incredibly insulting.

For women (and men) who respect women's rights to single sex spaces when vulnerable - there are a number of petitions to challenge the government to take steps to protect women in certain circumstances - we have a voice and should make it heard.
The petitions board has links to many of them - here's a link specifically addressing the need to remove men from women only safe spaces:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4688427-repeal-the-gra

Because it's a WOMENS WARD, that's why! It involves WOMEN being pregnant. If you needed your partner there 24/7, you should have got a private room. Pregnant vulnerable women shouldn't have to put up with men on a WOMENS WARD 24/7. This should not even need explaining.