Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

[TheWindIsChanging]

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes.
It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers.
Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

Do people not get that this isn’t just about pay? But without fair pay we cannot recruit and retain staff. Believe it or not we are trying to protect patients.

Lockdowns were indeed to protect the NHS. Not the staff working in the NHS. It was to protect ITU beds so that people that needed care could get it. It was so that staff could be redeployed to ITU and covid wards.

The system is broken and no one is listening. Every day patients are at risk because of staffing levels, because ambulances are stuck outside hospitals. Demand has outstripped supply and hospital, community and ambulance staff are emotionally exhausted and morally injured.

Imagine doing a job every day that you cannot do to your ability. Imagine having to prioritise care between a deteriorating patient and one sitting in their faeces. Imagine your professional registration being at risk every day, going home, hoping you haven’t made a mistake and being relieved if all your patients are still breathing. Imagine spending your shift in an ambulance outside a hospital with a sick patient but unable to get them into hospital to get the care they need. Imagine whilst doing that listening to control staff constantly asking if there are any free ambulances.

Imagine that every day you do your best but the media bashes you. Threads on mumsnet bash you.

I get it, it’s frightening. I am frightened because I see first hand how the system is broken. But it is not our fault. We do not want to continue working like this. Even if we manage to get a pay rise it won’t make much difference in the short term. It will hopefully stop some people leaving the professions but hopefully what it will do is encourage more to train into the professions. It won’t get magically make the NHS a better place but it’ll hopefully give a morale boost to those working in it which will ultimately be good for patients.

Until you have worked just a day in healthcare and deal with the emotional strain that it brings then you have no idea what it is like.

f people die during the strikes, it is not our fault. Instead it is the fault of the system. People are dying anyway and we are trying to prevent further unnecessary deaths.

If you want the NHS to continue then please support the strikes. Morale is at rock bottom and being denied a pay rise is likely to see many more people leaving the professions. You cannot expect outstanding care if you’re not prepared to pay the workers providing it .

We care. We care too bloody much which is why we are striking.

TheWindIsChanging

The nurses are asking for a 19% pay increase having already had one last year. Can you name other professions in the public sector with a similar increase in wage?

They've had 12 years of pay freezes and below inflation increases. This is what they have concluded they need to bring them back to the levels they were being paid in 2010.

Just because other people aren't unionised, or organised for collective bargaining, it doesn't make the case that nobody should get a pay rise.

I completely agree with this.

Peoples feelings about people they love and reasonable logic about the human lifespan seem to be becoming more and more distant from each other.

I've lost several family members in the last 3 years. 2 of them were over 95, the other was only 70 but had a terminal and incurable illness.

I've listened to a few of my family raging about the nhs crisis, how the waits were too long, the doctors should have acted sooner/done more, and about how this awful government have killed our relatives.

I seem to be alone in my thoughts that the 2 in their 90s were at the end of their lives and had no quality of life left, and that the younger relative would have died too soon with or without the current crisis.

People die. Especially old and very ill people. In many cases it's against nature, and not for the benefit of the person being kept alive with treatment. Indeed 2 of them had no idea who their relatives were and were doubly incontinent.

People are being kept alive beyond when they should be.

Hahaha yes! Let me tell you that qualified paramedics do not need to work in the NHS. They are paid more in primary care and even private ambulance services, who then work alongside emergency NHS ambulance, alongside the very colleagues they just left. Can you honestly answer me why you think people would stay to do stressful jobs that are badly paid when they have countless other options?
The answer is that they don't stay. Tbh us as a nation and op personally deserve the shocking services we are going to get.

Talk about attention-seeking. Did you not get enough jollies on your other thread, OP?

I know, freedom of speech and all that but honestly, I'm sick of seeing/hearing the whinging from self-serving people like you.

You don't get it. You'll never get it. You just want an audience to carry on talking at. Gone>>>

It can only deliver comparable results if it gets comparable resources.

They definitively need a degree, because they handle medication, take samples, and carry out procedures.
But it should be free, with the condition of working for the NHS X amount of years after graduating.

Not sure how nurses will see having apprentices? I can imagine that will get more in the way rather than help, at least at some points. But if it was feasible to have them changing beds, helping moving patients, helping taking them to the toilet (there are a good number of injuries due to lack of nurses to help with this!), helping with meals... what do you nurses in the thread think of this?

I'm getting the impression the OP doesn't know what she's arguing for herself TBH. She says that the country can't afford pay rises yet wants a system similar to European countries where nurses are paid more.

Efficiency in terms of health economics means achieving a given health benefit in a way that minimises costs. In other words a health service is only inefficient compared to other countries if it doesn't deliver results despite receiving the same amount of money as those other countries. The NHS receives less than most European countries

@Puzzledandpissedoff - I’m a nurse and couldn’t agree more. currently working with older adults and we have patients of 90 years plus whose relatives/power of attorney are still insisting they get taken to hospital if their condition deteriorates. So leave a lovely single room in a care home where staff know them really well to a busy hospital surrounded by noise everywhere to probably die a stressful death. We have one resident who is 98 and is on 32 medications (all free as we are in Scotland) the majority of which go into the cinbin as he can’t actually swallow them all but the relatives don’t want them stopped - one is a cholesterol lowering drug FFS.

nobody is allowed to just get old and die anymore. Acute stroke units were a good idea for younger people having strokes, but ended up admitting 90 year olds - when I was a newly qualified nurses, the very elderly coming in after a large stroke would get “TLC” as we used to call it (tender loving care) and be permitted a peaceful death, with use of sedating agents/pain killers as necessary.

it’s not like you have a stroke at 90, get resuscitated and come round as a 40 year old, it’s a fact of life your organ function deteriorates with age. And it’s harder to withdraw treatment after starting it than to just let people pass away peacefully without heroics.

They definitively need a degree, because they handle medication, take samples, and carry out procedures.

But they can get a degree with a BTec at one of the lesser universities so its not like a degree where you need good A levels so they are probably crap at maths anyway

You haven't read my posts despite responding. In fairness I only glanced quickly at yours after you announced you are from a family of health workers.. hardly unbiased and impartial is it? I haven't argued the NHS is anything other than dreadful - perhaps one good place to start would be to get rid of useless job titles like " diversity managers " and " executive assistant human resource managers" Perhaps if the NHS stopped obsessing over covid, had GPs that actually worked offering appointments instead of using smart phones to take pictures of ailments and stopped asking if middle aged men were pregnant as it was "NHS guidelines" I'd have more sympathy.

I am interested to know what nurses think of it. Will it work?

I support reforming the NHS, but not by striking. It's dangerous and will cost lives

Bait if the option is nothing changes or strike to force change - which then do you support OP?

On part of the last statement I agree with OP (as others PP do). A re-structuring of the NHS bodies is much overdue indeed.
We need the resources for nurses, ambulances, doctors and getting the GPs into the actual NHS.

While we wait for OP to reply, I vote for chucking the current government out.
Instead of strikes we should be moving towards forcing elections, now. Let the politicians be in the spot light, not striking workers.

They need to be faced with the reality that the majority of UK citizens are fed up with the way they are running the NHS, with our hard earn money.

@MushMonster no it wouldn't work, nursing is a lot more complex than it was and is definitely a degree profession. Drug knowledge is essential. Just because it's prescribed doesn't mean you should give it, you should know interactions and give according to exact current observations. That's just one example.

This is one of the reasons short staffing is so dangerous. Nurses get moved to areas they are not expert in and have to spend time reading about every complex mediation for each patient.

Striking is about getting more nurses and making nursing an attractive profession. It's about staffing and patient safety.

Shocking service we are going to get? It's been shocking for 15 -20 years and getting worse as an overcrowded small island unable to cope.

Thank you. I wish never to find myself in that situation again.

Sadly I have already thought about it and if in dire medical need where I can’t transport myself will pretend there is a fire and deal with the consequences after.

Sad state of affairs.

I don't have any other thread other than 1 post at the end of a thread someone else started.. keep taking your meds.

My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes

You must be able to see that this level of responsibility should come with a higher level of pay

Other European countries particularly scandinavian ones don't have 64 million rammed into a small island. Where is all this money coming from?