(i know i probably am) To be disapointed that whilst at my local shopping parade all around me were foreign.

[MAMAZON]

I don't want to start a UCM type thread but it just struck me how prety much everyone i saw at the shops earlier was foreign.

no one seemed to be speaking English at all.

Politicians use immigration (and increasingly, the whole 'Muslim issue') to their advantage and unfortunately, lots of people get taken in by the propaganda and general inflammatory claptrap. I'd love to have a genuine debate about immigration. The shifting and moving of thousands of people does affect us all - all over Europe, all over the world. And obviously, there are negative effects and definitely big social problems that arise from these changes. But I won't be drawn into petty, anecdotal sniping about people drinking in 'national costume' or the big bad 'foreigners' ruining Finsbury Park. that's not debate, it's just shitty, petty minded racism.

Hear, hear, Mrs Mattie!

mamadiva
the credit crunch has been caused by too many people buying too much on credit, by banks lending too much money to people whocouldn't afford to repay it and particulaly mortgae lenders doing so just before a drop in house prices in the united states. it is a world wide issue not a british one.
And it was caused entirely by lending issue in the private sector and nothing whatsoever to do with benefits.
just if you are interested....

the credit crunch has been caused by rich white americans selling mortgages to poor black americans... fuck all to do with polish builders.

and pinkchick, speak up and be damned, publish and be damned etc are well-known expressions in english. lolursuchajoke etcetera.

Oh, so it's not the rhubarb in my garden. I just assumed it must be as it annoyed me.

"My opinion is the same as any beneifts cheat or lazy shit no matter what nationality."

which is EXACTLY as it should be, mamadiva.

MrsMattie it's impossible to have a debate about immigrants when we are sniped at for saying our opinions because it si not what should be said and it might offend someone?

Unless of course you know how to have a one sided debate please inform me if you do?

Opinions that are ill founded, ignorant and racist will and should always be questioned.

i like raw rhubarb but my DH says that is odd.

He's right, that is odd.

Raw rhubarb is good.

Yes but someones argument is always going to seem ignorant regardless of what it is, it just so happens that not as many people shatre my opnion or are scared to say so.

but since shorty revived it, this hasn't been a debate about immigrants... it's been about shorty slagging off poles cos she doesn't like the fact that they speak polish when she's at work.

personally i think cestlavie has raised some interesting points, although they do rather make me despair...

If your opinions can be changed to fact then there is no problem at all.
You should really read the study I posted earlier, it has many facts and statistics surrounding immigration and is really interesting, or watch the video I linked.

Mamadiva - your opinion was that the credit crunch was caused by immigration. It wasn't. Of course it is right that the actual cause be stated and you opinion corrected.

Bitchy little anecdotes about your neighbours / some bloke you worked with / random Poles you observe in your area - it's NOT debate. Shorty hasn't said anything constructive. She's just made vague, wooly remarks about Finsbury Park and foreigners that make her sound deeply unpleasant. debate is not wittering over your garden wall to the neighbours about those 'bloody eastern Europeans'!

Pink and shorty seemed to have wussed out on me and jumped thread! PSML.

Heres me being the only 'racist' left. Dammit.

I don't want to get into petty arguments about it either I just think that people should take on other opinions a bit more really I'm not saying take what each other is saying is gospel but not jump on everyone who has a different view on things.

VS: I am on your side of the argument here, but the point is that although things may be true generally, they're not necessarily true personally especially in regard to how they're perceived. And just because they're not true generally doesn't make people's own experiences necessarily untrue.

Of course if they were not claiming benefits then everyone would not see a rise in their benefits payments. But that's not the point. Immigrants take money out of the total central funding, this does reduce total funding available for everything else and for the person in a Hartlepool council estate who sees an Iranian immigrant family moving in next door and receiving benefits, that's a very easy connection to make.

Equally, whilst immigration creates a net economic benefit to the country it does not necessarily do so at a very local level and even where it does, it is not always perceived as doing so. The low wage Polish workers in the Norfolk fields possibly are reducing the amount of work available to locals (even if the locals would be unlikely to do it) but more importantly, they're not spending their money in the ways that locals would, i.e. in the pubs and shops in the area. If you're the pub owner of a village in that area and your takings are down that year, the connection is very easy to make and may even be true.

My concern, as with the Democrats at the blue collar base in the US, is not to simply ignore people's concerns and deride them just because on a generic level they're wrong.

Cestlavie can I point out that I am in a high paid job never claimed any kind of benefits.
I do not have a problem with Immigrants but I do not believe that Britain should change its ways to accommodate people that are moving here from other countries. For example I could not tell you where the nearest Catholic church is in my area because there is not one but I can tell you where the nearest Polish Catholic church is. Also another example is the government wanting to build a multi million pound mosque so that when people fly over for 2012 it will be the biggest landmark in London which they will be able to see?????? WTF is that about? What's wrong with good old st Pauls cathedral or Big Ben! I don't agree when DC go to school in London that they should receive a Christmas dinner or celebrate Christmas the way I did as a child. The nativity play has been a British tradition for years but is no longer allowed to be done in some schools in case it offends other children??????? I do not agree that some religions are allowed to send the kids to school in there religious dress code as not only is it not fair on the other kids but it prompts bullying etc towards themselves

I do not think people should be allowed to wear full veils in airports etc as it seems anyone can be under there.

But again I will be branded a racist for these comments not that I care less.

As for the Daily Mail I goggled up polish benefits and that's what came up I refuse to read the newspaper after Alexander from big brother was all over them being called a bully and racist etc

aye, mamadiva, but the credit crunch. you do know that it's got fuck-all to do with polish builders? you see that now, don't you?

I agree again with Mrs Mattie. Why on earth should we take on the opinion of someone who is making comments about limited experiences which show themselves to be fairly prejudice rather than an informed debater who is discussing the issue as cestlavie?

TOTALLY OFF SUBJECT but Alex was a bloody bully not racist just a gangsta wannabe...

Oh dear I seem to have realised why you are offended.

More to the point - why is my eating raw rhubarb odd when apparently grown adults are still watching big brother?

LOL AItch I didnt say it was c aused by Polish builders, I don't actually know any Polish builders LOL.

Okay I shall correct myself on that one it is all beneift cheat and lazy bastard who caused the credit crunch LOL. No I get what you mean about the credit crunch but as I say I do tend to put 2+2 together and get 5. PSML.