To not have sympathy for my friend?

[lurkinglittleladybug]

I have an old school friend who’s been complaining about her partner taking zero interest in their children. She’s a stay at home mum and her partner works full time and is in a well paid job. He pays the bills and for anything her and the children need but she complains he’s not emotionally present with them. He doesn’t spend any time with them or help out at all with childcare.

I would normally have a low opinion of a man who can’t be arsed to spend time with his kids, and it is a shame for the children. But it’s so difficult to be sympathetic with my friend. I kind of feel like she made her own bed with this situation.

After a year of her being with her partner (at this point they had a really good relationship and lived together) , she knew he was strictly childfree and had no interest in children. So I was surprised when she announced her pregnancy but congratulated her as she was clearly happy about having a baby. She later told me that she knew her partner wouldn’t want to start a family so she just stopped taking the pill without telling him. He stays with her but becomes somewhat emotionally distant, I expect he was in shock. Friend was confident he would change his mind once their baby arrived.

After the baby is born he just takes zero interest, but she has lots of support from family. Nothing changes for a couple of years and then she announces she’s expecting her second child. I congratulate her, again I’m surprised, I had no idea they were trying. She then confides in me that she sabotaged the birth control again, this time the condoms they were using. At this point I make it clear I disapprove of her doing this. She becomes tearful saying what choice did she have and that her child needed a sibling. So I let the subject drop. Not wanting to be the asshole making my pregnant friend cry even though I think it’s a shitty thing to do.

Anyway now she has 2 children and she is complaining about how her partner has just emotionally checked out, not just with her children but also with her. He’s not interested in intimacy and is just going through the motions. It looks like their relationship is well and truly headed for the rocks this time.

I just find it so hard to be sympathetic with her, I mean what did she expect would happen? 🙄… Although obviously I’m very sad for the 2 children who face growing up with an emotionally distant dad…

Am I a terrible friend for not having sympathy for her?

I’m really struggling to stay friends with her knowing what I know, I just feel like I have lost respect for her. Although its difficult to end the friendship because we have known each other for such a long time.

You haven't met someone who admitted it.

I know someone who did it. Husband never wanted kids and was completely clear about it and said he'd leave if she ever got pregnant. She sabotaged the contraception, got pregnant, and he left. She was shocked! She thought he'd change his mind 🙄

@Millie2008
@ClarathecrosseyedLioness
@ImustLearn2Cook
@BellePeppa
@GreenFingersWouldBeHandy

It just isn't that easy to get a vasectomy in the UK. We don't know if the man didn't want children ever, or just didn't want them with his current partner.

She only did it so people like you could open the thread, read it all, then climb on your moral pedestal and tell her off. It’s a public service.

And you aren’t on your moral pedestal @sst1234?

I agree with you @NantsIngonyamaBagithiBaba.

Some of the sanctimonious posts berating the OP are ridiculous. This woman deliverately deceived her partner, and is a liar and therefore not to be trusted. End of. She is very lucky that he hasn't taken off. I suspect that these very same posters are projecting and cannot understand that some people don't need a baby to feel fulfilled.

@lurkinglittleladybug is she aware that she is extremely financially vulnerable by not being married and not working?

I know of three women who had children when their husbands weren't fully on board. The men wern't tricked into becoming parents, but it was more a case of "if you want a baby go ahead, but don't expect me to be the adoring dad". Two of the marriages broke up soon after the baby was born, the third one continues to struggle.

While I probably wouldn't end the friendship I would probably say to the friend that I didn't condone her behaviour and that she had put me in an awkward position regarding her deceit. And please stop complaining about her lot because she put herself in that position, and not to expect any sympathy from me.

@User434356 asking someone if a situation has triggered an emotion is NOT patronising it’s a question to allow op to consider. Sometimes we do have emotional reactions to certain situation’s which can be helpful to explore esp when it may cause the loss of a friend.

@RampantIvy I think you're right, so many women on here wanted a baby so much that they really can't get their head around the idea that some people never feel that way. They convince themselves their DH's will change after the baby but so many, many men really dont, then they blame the men for letting them down.

Nah, she's made her bed. Her friends an arsehole and now 2 kids risk growing up without a dad. Or at the very least an emotionally absent dad.

Her friend deserves no sympathy at all.

Why is he responsible, she actively lied and twice lied / tampered with contraception.

He created the children under the impression she was on the pill AND using condoms.

If this was a bloke tampering with condoms and tricked a woman into pregnancy your response would be very different. He's done now thing wrong. She is disgusting for bringing kids into this.

100% this.

With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Some of these women are so desperate to hate men it's it makes them look hysterical.

In my entire life I have never met a woman who tricked a man into impregnating her by lying about being on the pill or sabotaging condoms.

I have however heard misogynistic generalisations claiming that women do this.

Oh, come on, it happens all the time! Women have a biological clock; men don't. Therefore, women tend to want children sooner than men do. They also tend to want more children than men do. (Plus, a surprising number of women seem to think that getting pregnant by a man will make him propose.) And there's no male equivalent of the pill/coil/implant. Add all these factors together, and it doesn't take a genius to work out why there are so many "contraception failures".

Yeah, I couldn't be friends with this person and would struggle to keep my temper around both the violations and the BS idea that he's change his mind after the child was born. I'd also struggle to keep a violation like that from the guy, and I hope he gets the support he needs to be there for the kids.

It's weird how easy people seem to think vasectomies are to get for all guys. My husband had one in his twenties and while the GP was happy to refer him - largely because we already had four kids - it took over a year of multiple appointments with the hospital to convince them he was happy with going ahead with it. NHS and also private, some will just refuse sterilization procedures based on age, if they don't yet have (enough) kids, or other reasons, and the NHS has long waiting lists and often additional barriers.

So instead, it looks like he's chosen not to engage in sex that causes babies, which is equally taking control of his reproduction. I did the same after my fourth until there were two all clears from the snip, and even then I'm open that if I were to get pregnant again, I would seek an abortion. We had other types of intimacy well established through.

Her complaints about a lack of intimacy are bullshit as she's the one who broke it. You don't have intimacy with someone you've fooled and are lying to like that, she has someone who is playing the financial providing game that won't play into affection game too. If she actually wants to make amends and have that intimacy, it's going to take something big. I've no idea how you can repair something like that.

OP

I shall probably have a very different - and strong - opinion that many of the other posters. Probably cultural differences, as I'm from a different country in Europe.

I find this absolutely abhorrent.
I would consider it no different than (ok let's say a "milder form of") rape.

So I would treat it no differently than if a male friend told me that he repeatedly assaulted someone - e.g., that he repeatedly sexually assaulted his wife during her deep sleep.
So I would immediately tell the victim - in this case the DH. And support him in whatever he did after e.g. break up, dealing with after math with friends and family etc.

Doing anything else would be hypothetical against my own moral code.

Let's not forget that on a different dimension, your "friend" continuously benefits from the (ok let's call them mild forms of) rapes she committed - she continues to have the children, and his financial support.

*hypocritical not hypothetical ! sorry

What a bunch of sexist codswallop. Let's see how you like it the other way round.

"If you didn't want to get sexually assaulted, why did you walk home alone at night?"

"I've never know a woman who was raped, so rape is a myth"

"I have heard misandric generalisations claiming that men harass women by catcalling them"

"If a woman has no interest in being raped, it is very easily solved by locking herself into her house & never risking going out"

I have known men who have had a vasectomy and claimed that it was a very easy, minor procedure that was quickly recovered from and well worth doing.
& a few other PP know men who had insurmountable difficulty in obtaining a vasectomy. So your point is ..?

she announces she’s expecting her second child. I congratulate her, again I’m surprised, I had no idea they were trying. She then confides in me that she sabotaged the birth control again, this time the condoms they were using. At this point I make it clear I disapprove of her doing this. She becomes tearful saying what choice did she have and that her child needed a sibling.

That last sentence - I'd have dumped her for that manipulative, dishonest, self-serving bullshit alone.

Her way or the highway, passing off her selfish 'want' as DC1's 'need', & turning on the waterworks to shut down any challenge. Toxic femininity 101.

So you'd tacitly condone what she did?

This man could have left her at any point. They're not married, he could have settled for a bare minimum mandated maintenance payment, & tolf her to fuck off & take her sabotaged condom stash with her.

She'd be up shit creek then, as she's also currently out of the workplace.

So she's not just a liar who stole a man's sperm as a way to get the DC she craved & keep her mitts in his wallet - she's amazingly dim. Or just plain venal, or both. I can't imagine what kind of psychological hold she has over him that keeps him plodding on with her.

He's doing a stand-up job, providing a home to 2 kids he didn't ask for, & their conniving mother. He'll have a sneaking suspicion of how it all came about. Yet here he is anyway, making sure everybody is taken care of, at least financially. I wouldn't be surprised if some fairly major depression is part of his emotional withdrawal.

That's my kneejerk feeling too Ocrumbs.

But when the brain kicked back in, I realised what a horrorshow it would be. Imagine what the incels could make of it ...

You don't sound a like a very logical person, childless or not.

How dare you be so outrageously sexist? A man who states he does not want DC, agrees that with his g/f, trusts her to be honest, believes their goals are aligned, should have sought out an OPERATION? You seem to believe it's like ordering a takeaway - readily available on demand & easy to arrange.

Not that how hard it is to get one is even the point.
You are basically saying that men ought to be sterilised if they want pregnancy-risk free sex. Hideous bit of misandry, you should be ashamed of yourself.

What's your least favourite animal BellePeppa?
Let's go with an alligator, they're not very popular. You wouldn't want one in your home, would you? How would you feel if I coerced you into owning two alligators? Then blamed you for NOT LOVING THEM 'COS THEY'RE HERE NOW.
You'd think I was an evil madwoman, & you'd be right - especially when I told you that if you didn't want alligators, there is a perfectly fine non-alligator-owning medical procedure available, & you should have thought of that so it's all your own fault.

As to not very loving ... how loving is it to trick somebody into owning 2 alligators children they didn't order? Not wanting alligators is not the sign of a cold heart. It's the sign of someone who ... doesn't want alligators.

Tricking somebody into owning alligators though ... well, THAT person is too selfish to be in charge of pets, as they have demonstrated that their own desires are more important than anybody else's. I would hazard OP's friend is not a very good mum: probably the type who views children as possessions & extensions of their own ego.

But you keep on with the victim-blaming Belle. It seems to make you feel smugly happy, what with all that virtue-signalling about "love".

If you had bothered to read further I explained that I meant people were being harsh to the OP. I neither tacitly nor explicitly condone what her friend has done.

@RamblingEclectic @KettrickenSmiled 👏👏👏👏👏

How is it naive to rely on contraception?
It's not naive, it's NORMAL. It's part of the social consciousness, in a way that vasectomy really isn't. It's just not part of the zeitgeist for the vast majority of people to think "well I don't want kids so I'd better sterilise myself."

Condoms are 98% reliable.
The 2% failure rate is usually down to user error.
That user error can be reduced further by educating yourself, not getting too pissed to be careful, not delaying putting it on during foreplay, etc.
Doing that can bring effectiveness so close to 100% it's almost indistinguishable.
As effective as a vasectomy - which are also not 100% reliable.

Within that 2% user error scope is an error that only one party can control though - sabotage.
So unless you're a stupid dick about how you use condoms, you are being entirely reasonable to assume your contraception is almost bulletproof.
UNLESS ... your girlfriend is a liar with access to pins.

Of course it’s enormously difficult to ever prove but I do think the small minority of women who do this should be taken to court, it should be as illegal as stealthing is. She has removed his right to choose whether he has children or not, it’s out of order.

The desire to have a child can be so strong and it's not always easy to just go meet someone new.

My desire to rob a bank is so strong, because it's not easy to just go out & meet a million quid.

But instead of whipping out the balaclava, I resign myself to the fact that no bank has consented to my raid, & that while I may never have a million quid, I can be content with the cash I'm able to earn honestly.

Tbh I can see why someone on MN would think it's naive to rely on contraception since the failure rate seems to be 50%....

Soz

If you can lie to and deceive your man about something as huge and life-changing as pregnancy, then I would wonder what else they had lied and deceived about.
Vasectomies.....just because a young man has said that he doesn't want children today, doesn't mean that he may not want children in the future. Having a vasectomy would put paid to that unless he goes through the reversal, not guaranteed to work, procedure.
Not many doctors will perform this procedure on a young man for that very reason.
If you can't trust your partner, then who can you trust? The man had taken reasonable steps to prevent a pregnancy, the woman took unreasonable steps to ensure a pregnancy happened.
Despicable.

Hopefully as they get a bit older she can become financially independent and move on from him.

This reads as if he's the party in the wrong! - like he's compromised her financial independence by accepting her wish to be a SAHM despite him never have envisaged having to become the sole provider in a single-income family of 4.

Didn't you mean to say "hopefully, she will stop mooching off a man she stole sperm from & blackmailed into paying for the results, stop living a lie, & leave him to find a more deserving & honest woman" ?