To think that Henry VIII was an abusive physco

[Iwanttoslowdown]

And should be taught in school as such.

One of mine is being taught about this tosser in Secondary school history and I was appalled that it was treated with such blasé that he literally was an abuser.

So I had to retell the story not as someone to be revered or remembered well, but that this abuser killed some of his wives including the mother of his daughter Elizabeth I, had serial mistresses, gorged his way through Court like some oversized pimple set to burst and generally Gould not be taught as a good person.

The OP followed up her justifiable criticism of Henry's personality and behaviour with describing how he "gorged his way through Court like some oversized pimple set to burst", which I interpreted as saying that his obesity was a moral failing to be bundled in with murder. If she meant it in a more metaphorical sense then I apologise.

There is a theory that he didn't have syphilis but Cushing disease which apparently causes most of the symptoms that Henry displayed, including paranoia in some cases.

Amazing 'AIBU to think Henry Stuart was a cocklodger?'

Did he possibly have diabetes

He was pretty awful. He wasn't meant to be king but his older brother died

His father had had to seize the throne so that would have affected him.

Definitely abusive

Totally agree, absolutely fab musical and so true.

He wasn’t meant to be king, though, was he? That was Arthur. Henry was raised in a court full of women. His sisters and mother doted on him. Ruined him.

His mother died when he was 11 and it left a mark. His behaviour was driven by securing his father’s dynasty by producing a male heir, and finding a woman who adored him as his mother had.

He wasn’t some sexual predator and could not sleep with a woman who he did not believe found him attractive. That was part of the reason he could not consummate his marriage to Anne of Cleves. His chivalric fantasy fell at the first hurdle when Anne failed to recognise him as the King and looked at the fat, ageing man before her with disgust. Mantel covers the moment beautifully.

He was a horrid individual, but a highly complicated horrid individual. I don’t like seeing him reduced to caricature. He was athletic, romantic, chivalric, brave, patriotic, highly-intelligent; an author, musician, dancer, jouster, wrestler, horse-rider; a visionary, bully, power-mad, insecure, changeable, merciless, gaslighter, petulant, pathetic, easily-manipulated, misogynistic, man-babied, emotionally-stunted, spoilt human being.

Royals haven't changed much over the centuries. None of them are heroes, few to be celebrated, many to be despised. We should be thankful that P Harry has just had a major envy strop on Netflix and not raised an army in his cause as many of his predecessors would have done.

He was a domestic abuser and should be labelled as such.

A lot of history is glossed over, took me visiting Liverpool slave museum to know that the UK (England) had a slave trade much like the USA's. Was never taught it in history. My pride for the motherland took a nose dive that day and it's never really recovered

Elizabeth I was not ‘nice’! She had her own cousin executed.

He wasn’t meant to be king, though, was he? That was Arthur. Henry was raised in a court full of women. His sisters and mother doted on him. Ruined him.
You can put that retro-active misogyny in your pipe & smoke it @electricmoccasins Hos female relatives are not responsible for his murderous rages, paranoia & psychopathy.

His mother died when he was 11 and it left a mark. His behaviour was driven by securing his father’s dynasty by producing a male heir, and finding a woman who adored him as his mother had.
Hold on ... which Harry are you talking about here? 😂

He wasn’t some sexual predator and could not sleep with a woman who he did not believe found him attractive.
Tell that to all the young women - some of them children - who had to feign compliance. Given how predatory he was in all other areas of life, I'm not sure why you want to paint him as non-predatory sexually. Having an ego about being desired isn't exactly a carte blanche for all the 'carousing' he did around court & at private houses. He was fairly discreet, but sexually profligate, until ill health stopped him.

That was part of the reason he could not consummate his marriage to Anne of Cleves. His chivalric fantasy fell at the first hurdle when Anne failed to recognise him as the King and looked at the fat, ageing man before her with disgust. Mantel covers the moment beautifully.
She does, doesn't she?
Although the lack of attraction was mutual. Henry was used to having his pick of "beauties" & Anne didn't come up to his exacting physical standards.
I do find it interesting how much he later valued her though. "Beloved sister" etc, & ensuring she could live out her life in comfort.

He was a horrid individual, but a highly complicated horrid individual. I don’t like seeing him reduced to caricature. He was athletic, romantic, chivalric, brave, patriotic, highly-intelligent; an author, musician, dancer, jouster, wrestler, horse-rider; a visionary, bully, power-mad, insecure, changeable, merciless, gaslighter, petulant, pathetic, easily-manipulated, misogynistic, man-babied, emotionally-stunted, spoilt human being.
Well said. He was a monster - but a mighty one.
And without him we would not have had that titan of royalty - Liz 1.
Not that she wasn't a mercurial monster too - but a fascinating one, & less bloodthirsty than her father. For her times, a model of restraint in some ways ...

@electricmoccasins Catherijne Howard's latest biographer sums him up - that even before the fall that seemed to change his personality Henry was capable of questionable legal and moral behaviour - the executions of Dudley and Empson and the Duke of Buckingham being examples. He describes Henry by 1540 as having gone rotten without ever having been ripe.

In Elizabeth's position I'd probably have done the same. Mary was a serious threat, allied with forces plotting to take her throne and her life, and probably specifically supporting Elizabeth's murder. I grant you that "nice" is not the right word though.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain

Not to mention the execution of Sir Thomas Moore, simply because he wouldn’t acknowledge Henry as the Supreme Head of the church in England. A man who had been a close friend to him.

Intelligence is one of the big myths of HVIII. And visionary don’t make me laugh. He learnt languages when which to the British seems like some kind of genius - whereas it’s pretty easy when you start young as he did.

The reality is he was stupid and lazy and the reformation was entirely down to Thomas Cromwell and Cranmer. They were the political and religious visionaries. Henry had to be persuaded which wasn’t so hard because of Anne Boleyn.

How much was natural stupidity and how much was the result of brain damage from a fall or syphilis or another disease is impossible to say.

The only two policies that he personally responsible for the direction of were: a. Foreign policy - pursuing pointless expensive wars that achieved nothing; and b. His marriage policy - which is basically psychopathy.

The reality is he was stupid and lazy and the reformation was entirely down to Thomas Cromwell and Cranmer. They were the political and religious visionaries. Henry had to be persuaded which wasn’t so hard because of Anne Boleyn

The English Reformation was one of my history A level topics, and I recall a few discussions along the lines of 'what did Henry want to happen after he'd made himself Supreme Head and married Anne Boleyn?' we never really answered it and I think the consensus now is that his attitude to how the Reformation proceeded depended a lot on political motives (what's happening in France and the Holy Roman Empire) and whoever he was listening to/happened to be in favour at the time.

His court sounds an absolute nightmare. Everyone tiptoeing around wondering if and when they'll be thrown in the Tower because they didn't respond fast enough or correctly enough to the winds of religious change.

Elizabeth 1, though fondly remembered on this thread, is not held in the same esteem in Ireland.
Land taken forcibly from the people and given to the likes ofSir Walter Raleigh.
Plus the persecution of a Catholic majority population.

I don't "get" either her staying unmarried and without a direct heir.
Perhaps she knew she couldn't have children ?

Elizabeth had her moments too. When the political writer and pamphleteer John Stubbs wrote a critical article regarding the proposed union of Elizabeth I and the Catholic Francis, Duke of Anjou, saying that at 46 she was too old to have children and therefore the marriage was pointless, she had his hand cut off.

I think Mary of Scotland’s two husbands, Lords Darnley and Bothwell, probably were!

Given the mortality rate at the time, I think if you had the option to have a position of power and not having to risk dying in childbirth you'd take it.

I imagine that's why Anne of Cleeves made a similar choice.

At my Catholic school, Mary, Queen of Scots was presented to us as a tragic heroine and Elizabeth, a bit of a cow.

Of course. How could anybody not know this? He killed or sent away most of his wives.

Elizabeth had her moments too

And being a Catholic priest in Elizabethan England wasn't the way to live a long and healthy life, either.

After he lost his hand Stubbs used his other hand to raise his hat and cry 'God save the Queen!' It's said the crowd was ominously silent.

Sorry, didn't mean to quote all that post.