To think why have so many kids if you can’t afford their presents?

[yuletidey]

Before I start I just want to say I have absolutely nothing against large families, I also understand people will have times in their lives where they struggle.

I recently volunteered for a local to charity, they donate toys to children in need all around the country. I have volunteered for around 6 years around Christmas time to get toys packed. Yesterday I was helping pack boxes as they are really overwhelmed with the demand.

Recently I think the charity has changed their criteria as before anyone could get in touch and they would receive toys, I think the founder was a bit naive there but hey. Now people need to be referred by a school, social worker, support worker etc as a lot of people were taking advantage.

Anyway a woman turned up to the charity yesterday, asking for toys. The young girl working there said they will be giving them out all next week, she mentioned they had changed the criteria. The woman was saying she has ten kids and she was relying on them for toys, she was saying how can I get toys, she has kids from 16 to 1. They will now have to go without and no one bothered to tell her the criteria changed. The young girl apologised and said all updates were on their social media but they can’t update everyone individually. The woman lost her temper saying they have ruined her kids Christmas, it’s the girls fault, she’s ruined 10 kids Christmas.

This went on for a bit until I someone else stepped in but I was just shocked. I appreciate people need help and the pressure of Christmas can’t be nice but this woman has used the toys since they started, in that time she’s had a few children. I realise it’s a touchy subject but I felt so sorry for the young girl as she was really upset at letting children down

I agree, we had 4 on £100,000 and it was tight. Lots of ebay clothes and toys. But they all had their own bedrooms.

For this generation and the one previous having children young and in multiple numbers is viewed as a lifestyle choice instead of work. On the whole and rarely without exception, within the groups of society where career prospects are poor, wages are stagnant and zero hours contracts make life difficult. It’s no wonder that some girls make that choice. Once they’re trapped in that cycle then they keep having children so they’re not forced to return to work. Many of these have never worked. The idea of working is terrifying to them.

Its not benefit bashing, it is something that happens. I see many of these where I work, in a deprived area.

Great post AND username (one of my favourite songs btw)

It's this of course. I know someone who is now, after many years, permanently losing her children to adoption. She does, in her own way, love her kids, she would say they are her world. But she doesn't seem to be able to make the connection between her life choices she makes and the fairly obvious negative consequences of her choices, and the children have suffered because of it. I think it's a kind of cognitive damage and hard to understand for those of us who haven't grown up with abuse and neglect.

Totally spot on.

Hear hear

Surely the complaint was the mother was unnecessarily rude to the volunteer she was speaking with?
That could potentially happen if she had one, 5 or ten children?
And, if you worked for a charity for several years and there's a COL crisis, how has it come as a surprise that there are desperate people, people with unexpected circumstances or people living in a variety of situations...

I think you are.
Lots of families pre WW2 were large. Very normal. And they had no difference in money or housing space. Plenty went on to have good well paid careers although nursing, trades and military type things rather than Uni. It doesn’t have to be terrible to have nine.

However there wasn’t the benefits support there is now. You had to make a go of it yourself and work was long and hard. I don’t know if we as a society could even ask people to go back to living like that. Certainly judging by the amount of striking going on I’d say not.

I agree, people always complaining oh I got three kids but they don’t stop as the time goes 4,5,6. Some people prefer larger families but if they can’t look after them properly then we shouldn’t have them.

YANBU

What @TheOnlyBeeInYourBonnet said

Multiple reasons why people have large families they can't afford. Mainly because the world shits on them but a large family is their own domain where they have some control and lots of love.

Genuinely interested in what these interventions look like? Can you elaborate
There have been so many different schemes over the years. From the top of my head some include:
'Strengthening families', a 6 week course was popular a few years back.
Family support workers, supporting the family with immediate issues and then referring and signposting to specialised agencies for targeted support such as domestic abuse,substance misuse. We have specific and targeted youth work interventions with young people identified as being at risk for CSE, county lines etc. Specific work is done around internet safety, keeping safe, sex education. We have done , for many years, virtual babies with teens in a residental setting , away from home so they have to do everything for the (virtual) baby and cant just leave it with their mum. This hasn't made much difference in my opinion. I'm still seeing and supporting the girls we worked with becoming pregnant at 15, 16 and 17 ( the age I work to before they are transferred to adult services at 18)
We do positive activities to try and keep young people engaged.
The list goes on but no matter how much time and resources we dedicate to some families , the pattern keeps repeating especially with the extended families where we know the cousins, grand parents etc.
I honestly dont know what the answer is.

These are different things though. I grew up the youngest of 5 at a time when large families were no longer normal. We had no money and my parents went for long periods not working and at other times did unstable minimum wage jobs (but before min wage existed). This difference was the presence of aspiration and the absence of abuse. I went to school every single day, as did my siblings. We had books in the house - they were never new, they were dog eared and handed down and had originally come from charity shops many years before, but they were there and I knew that a parent would be there to tuck me in and read me a bedtime story. I was cared for and clothed and had something for Christmas (even if it also came from a charity shop). My upbringing was a completely different experience to the kids who are not safe, and live chaotic and often abusive childhoods. Lack of money and large families don't cause this on their own, but not coping and parents who can't care for the kids does.

Frankly, having more than two children is utterly irresponsible. Adopt if you want more.

Oh and we always received benefits, I don't think that's relevant. We'd have been in the union too, if given the opportunity.

We have 5 DC and I totally agree with you. It wasn’t a conscious decision to have five as such but we can afford them and definitely don’t rely on charity handouts. I’ve bought a lot of their gifts second hand since they were small, really see no issue with this because it not only saves money but is also better for the planet. Sometimes get things brand new with tags for half the price on Vinted or eBay.

I think the Mum in question’s attitude stinks. It’s the expectation that someone else should pick up the tab for her life choices.

Absolutely. How can you even spend quality time with 5 children? Let alone if you can't afford them which is tantamount to child abuse. Investigate Nathan Wallis, studies have shown 5 or more kids is detrimental to the children (although I guess that's hardly surprising).

The most powerful three words I know: "I don't care"

Also agree. Tends to be parents who don't parent their children and offload them at any oppportunity. They think their children are other people's problems. See also: the saying "children are a privilege, not a right".

Tbf I know people with one child who do this and are absolutely appalling parents so it isn’t exclusive to those with more children.

We do have time for all of our children and bend over backwards to ensure they all feel listened to and have 1:1 time. I heavily resent the assumption that those with more than two children are selfish and piss poor parents, it just isn’t true. Shit parents exist across the board- all walks of life and as I say, even ones with an only child.

"you will also often find many have DLA type benefits for the more challenging behaviour ones"

You cannot get DLA for challenging behaviour alone. Have you ever applied for DLA?

@Freddosforall well my point was also large families aren’t necessarily bad.

What are the reasons some are poor but loving families and some change into “chaotic households”? The majority on here seem to feel it’s low aspiration, that someone else ( benefits, housing, help with presents) will pick up the slack. But there’s no way you can take benefits away from poorest is there.

I do agree , I think if you’re in a position where contraception is not an option, like in certain parts of the world where it’s not allowed for religious or cultural reasons, or you’re in an abusive relationship where contraception is controlled/sabotaged (have heard of this happening, awful) then it’s different but it is very easy to access free contraception you can literally have it delivered to your door in this country . However the problem is once the children are here they’re the innocent party they didn’t ask to be born. I also think it’s sad that older ones end up parenting the younger often, for example in your woman in the OP’s situation what are the odds the 16yo ends up being like a second adult / parent. Not fair.

Absolutely this.

However there wasn’t the benefits support there is now.

And thousands of children died in abject poverty in slums! The people of the slums, many of them now live in council estates and they haven't escaped poverty. The people you're talking about is the old 'respectable working class' , the slum dwellers, not so much.

Plenty went on to have good well paid careers although nursing, trades and military type things rather than Uni.

You say good well paid careers like nursing and military, this can't happen today, they pay a pittance and ask the Earth from those who enter jobs like that.

I don’t know if we as a society could even ask people to go back to living like that. Certainly judging by the amount of striking going on I’d say not.

Of course we shouldn't be living like we were 100 or 50 years ago!!! Is this the low bar you set? That we should tough it out because our Grandparents lived in harsher times???