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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think why have so many kids if you can’t afford their presents?

479 replies

yuletidey · 13/12/2022 04:50

Before I start I just want to say I have absolutely nothing against large families, I also understand people will have times in their lives where they struggle.

I recently volunteered for a local to charity, they donate toys to children in need all around the country. I have volunteered for around 6 years around Christmas time to get toys packed. Yesterday I was helping pack boxes as they are really overwhelmed with the demand.

Recently I think the charity has changed their criteria as before anyone could get in touch and they would receive toys, I think the founder was a bit naive there but hey. Now people need to be referred by a school, social worker, support worker etc as a lot of people were taking advantage.

Anyway a woman turned up to the charity yesterday, asking for toys. The young girl working there said they will be giving them out all next week, she mentioned they had changed the criteria. The woman was saying she has ten kids and she was relying on them for toys, she was saying how can I get toys, she has kids from 16 to 1. They will now have to go without and no one bothered to tell her the criteria changed. The young girl apologised and said all updates were on their social media but they can’t update everyone individually. The woman lost her temper saying they have ruined her kids Christmas, it’s the girls fault, she’s ruined 10 kids Christmas.

This went on for a bit until I someone else stepped in but I was just shocked. I appreciate people need help and the pressure of Christmas can’t be nice but this woman has used the toys since they started, in that time she’s had a few children. I realise it’s a touchy subject but I felt so sorry for the young girl as she was really upset at letting children down

OP posts:
lifeinthehills · 13/12/2022 08:04

name78change · 13/12/2022 08:01

Honestly I think having more than 2 kids is such a risk; if a relationship breaks down, a parent dies, income change, health changes etc etc it's all well and good having 4 kids in a good income, 2 parent home, but life is going to get very difficult very fast if something happens. I appreciate you can't live your life like disaster is around the corner, but relationship breakdown in the very least is statistically plausible. I do struggle with the "and I've got X kids" narrative for sympathy as if they poof came out of nowhere, I very purposefully kept my family small, I thought this stuff through. Appreciate not all children are planned but when you get to 4+ there are decisions being made.

You can't insure against relationship breakdown but for the others, there are insurances.

Even just having one or two kids is no guarantee. Some people have medical issues develop in a child in their teens, or somehow their child becomes disabled, and they have to find a way to care for that child for many more years than planned. You're never really completely safe.

Iwannabeacrocodilehunter · 13/12/2022 08:05

My mother in law had a lot of children. She coped just fine with them until the eldest turned 9 and their dad died in an accident.

At that point, not only was this woman with a lot of children on her own; she could no longer afford the time to work; she could no longer afford Christmas and her mental health went downhill.

The children did suffer, albeit non of it was intentional. They were all victims of circumstance. And they never had a lot or received from charities.

Out of all of those children, only two, my husband included have managed to go on to pull themselves completely out of poverty. The others live with varying struggle. Life is hard. And their lives changed on that day when their dad passed in a freak accident. Shit happens as they say and it’s nice that there are people out there trying to help.

name78change · 13/12/2022 08:07

Even just having one or two kids is no guarantee. Some people have medical issues develop in a child in their teens, or somehow their child becomes disabled, and they have to find a way to care for that child for many more years than planned. You're never really completely safe.

Exactly, so how much more difficult a situation would be if this occurs in a bigger family. And whilst financially insurances can help, they can't help with all the mental load some of those life changes would bring.

trampoline123 · 13/12/2022 08:07

It depends on the person I suppose.

I have 2 kids and we struggle BUT I never expect handouts, I cut back and have made adjustments so they have what they need. I go without, don't go out or waste money on booze or fags.

For Christmas they have more than enough but I just haven't gone OTT - they are luckily enough to not understand or demand the latest craze.

name78change · 13/12/2022 08:08

Just add not saying 1-2 children is safe, but in risk management it's finding balance. I wouldn't NOT hang kids because something could happen, but I will keep my family size manageable.

Baconand · 13/12/2022 08:08

She probably doesn’t have 10 kids but takes the toys and sells them on Facebook. There’s unfortunately always one or two that take advantage when there’s not been checking in place.

DrManhattan · 13/12/2022 08:09

Yeah of course that happened....

DorritLittle · 13/12/2022 08:10

TheOnlyBeeInYourBonnet · 13/12/2022 05:16

Disadvantage is complex and usually intergenerational.

You can see the cause and effect because you've had a reasonable education, good role models, you're mentally and cognitively well. Volunteer or work in this space long enough and you'll see that's not the case for an alarming number of people.

I agree with this.

lifeinthehills · 13/12/2022 08:11

name78change · 13/12/2022 08:07

Even just having one or two kids is no guarantee. Some people have medical issues develop in a child in their teens, or somehow their child becomes disabled, and they have to find a way to care for that child for many more years than planned. You're never really completely safe.

Exactly, so how much more difficult a situation would be if this occurs in a bigger family. And whilst financially insurances can help, they can't help with all the mental load some of those life changes would bring.

We can plan for what we think will happen but you just never know.

I know people who have lost husbands with varying numbers of kids. A fair few actually. Maybe we should all have the number we can cope with on our own ideally? But then - I think that's a scarier situation as no back up if something happens to the remaining parent. Disability, death, illness can be just around the corner for anyone.

User98866 · 13/12/2022 08:11

Having done some volunteer work in my community I do agree. It does always seem to be the family’s that can least afford them who have the most children. I’ve met lots of family’s with 4, 6, 8 children and just think….why?? However I don’t really think anyone should be having 4 children so probably a bit biased. The lady with 8 is also on the old style tax credits system and I think it will be a nasty shock when they are forced into UC.

I do agree that it’s risky to have more than 2 dc. I’m one of 3 and my mum struggled massively after being widowed. Put me off having more than 2 even though I’d have loved 3 really.

NotAnotherCrisis · 13/12/2022 08:12

I think it's all more complex than just have fewer kids if you're poorer.

BiscuitLover3678 · 13/12/2022 08:12

It’s very hard to know the situation. She may have come from a background where lots of children was normalised, it was a coping mechanism or where contraception isn’t allowed. Most people (I say most) don’t have that many children through educated choice.

I mostly find it sad because I’m sure she’s had that realisation now. It can’t be fun relying on charity handouts for Christmas.

ImaginaryDragon · 13/12/2022 08:12

notacooldad · 13/12/2022 07:55

Often people with many children and little to no money or living on benefits have been raised that way themselves. It’s their norm. A lack of knowledge on what life has to offer and a lack of aspiration to do more with their lives

The town I work in is always mentioned in reports as the most deprived in the North West. However families of 6 children plus with involvement with children's social care are not uncommon. My heart always sinks when I hear 'mum is pregnant again' in meetings.
I've been in the job a while and the children I was supporting 10 years ago are now having children in the same situation. As we say at work, "and so the cycle continues"
I'm not sure what can be done about things. We have intervention support. We have family support and also young people support workers. We run programmes directly aimed at families to break the cycle of dysfunctional living. ( not necessarily referring to the number of children issue, but to chaotic lifestyles)but I can hardly recall seeing much change and the lifestyle often repeats to the next generation.

How many women have birthed 10 children in the UK? I've worked with quite a few women who have.
I've also worked ( also working) with women who have come to the UK and birthed some children here and their older ones elsewhere. Some of the travelling families we support have large number of children. For them, it seems cultural. I cant comment on that demographic as it is not my direct work but my coleagues. I'm not making a comment one way or another, just saying 10 children is not unusual in some groups.

Genuinely interested in what these interventions look like? Can you elaborate?

lifeinthehills · 13/12/2022 08:14

I know lots of families with lots of children and none of them would fit the stereotype presented here.

As for selling the gifts, not sure I think that's likely. It wouldn't be worth it.

name78change · 13/12/2022 08:14

Maybe we should all have the number we can cope with on our own ideally?

Yes I think this is sensible, if not popular.

EileenAdler · 13/12/2022 08:16

TheOnlyBeeInYourBonnet · 13/12/2022 05:16

Disadvantage is complex and usually intergenerational.

You can see the cause and effect because you've had a reasonable education, good role models, you're mentally and cognitively well. Volunteer or work in this space long enough and you'll see that's not the case for an alarming number of people.

Totally reject that. She abused a young woman because of her mentality of entitlement. Trotting out some woke narrative doesn’t excuse a culture of dependence and demands from those who work to support themselves and their family.

SchoolQuestionnaire · 13/12/2022 08:17

TheOnlyBeeInYourBonnet · 13/12/2022 05:16

Disadvantage is complex and usually intergenerational.

You can see the cause and effect because you've had a reasonable education, good role models, you're mentally and cognitively well. Volunteer or work in this space long enough and you'll see that's not the case for an alarming number of people.

I agree with this. People do what they know. Whatever the reason it isn’t fair that the children born into disadvantaged situations are left to suffer because we feel the parents have behaved in a feckless manner. I do wonder how we break the cycle though.

NewStartIn50s · 13/12/2022 08:20

Quite often poor families have lots of children. They do receive more benefits for more children and you will also often find many have DLA type benefits for the more challenging behaviour ones. However, some of the challenging behaviour comes from lack of attention and poor role models. It's a cycle of poverty, lack of education and following the choices of their parents which leads to more kids, little value for education and often no job or very low paid jobs.... on and on and on with early pregnancy of the girls to 'get out' of the family home and have one of their own... and off you go again.

PurpleWisteria1 · 13/12/2022 08:25

yoyy · 13/12/2022 08:00

If everyone just had 1-2 kids or even just 2 kids from now on, in 30-40 years there would be societal collapse with not enough food and way way less healthcare and public services etc than there are now. Really hoping that doesn’t happen.

This doesn't make sense @PurpleWisteria1 healthcare & public services are already starting to collapse because the impact of the changing demographic is coming through & we don't have enough "workers" to support it physically or economically

Yes, so what you have said supports my point. The current crisis is because European migrants have left.
Imagine that and X it a few times over.

SmileyClare · 13/12/2022 08:26

yuletidey · 13/12/2022 07:37

I also haven’t signed anything to volunteer. Us volunteers were in the back putting things into boxes. We have no contact with the users of the charity

It sounds as though you hold preconceived ideas about the recipients of your charity and didn’t like the reality of seeing one in the flesh.
A person walking in must be a rare occurrence if you work in the packing department for a charity that delivers nationwide? Confused

Its arrogant to judge who is worthy of charity and shockingly narrow minded.

Im very surprised at your stance given your claim to have experienced poverty and a having a parent with addiction issues.

Sorry but your thread title is silly; it speaks volumes about your prejudice despite your protestations.

AnuSTart · 13/12/2022 08:27

We've got five but an income of around 200k and frankly that is tough. We have no extra cash. I've utterly no idea how people have lots of kids on less. And certainly when we started our family I was on income support and there's no way I'd have gone onto have more in those circumstances.

But as someone says above poverty is often intergenerational and the attitudes, the 'norm' that comes with it can be challenging.

femfemlicious · 13/12/2022 08:27

Toddlerteaplease · 13/12/2022 05:07

Completely agree. I also feel the same when people with loads of kids are complaining they can't get a big enough Social housing property. If you don't have space, you don't have heaps of kids. It's your responsibility.

Totally agree!. What's most annoying is that they keep having children in that same too small housing and expect it to be all up to the council...the cognitive dissonance is crazy. And the fathers of said children seem to take no responsibility for them.

Justthisonce12 · 13/12/2022 08:27

PurpleWisteria1 · 13/12/2022 08:25

Yes, so what you have said supports my point. The current crisis is because European migrants have left.
Imagine that and X it a few times over.

Show quote history

I wonder how many of those 10 children will be coming that contributors though. I don’t really see them as being part of the solution generally speaking.

Ineedtocleanmywoodenblinds · 13/12/2022 08:28

I agree with posters who have said it's a complex issue. Large families seem to be the domain of those in low income or well off families and not normally those in between. In an ideal world we'd all have children according to our circumstances but that's just not how it works sometimes. Sounds like this woman acted badly in the heat of the moment but I've done that too. I'm not justifying it but none of us are perfect and sometimes we all behave badly.

MardyMincepie · 13/12/2022 08:28

I am from a family who had six children, all born in the 1950’s and 1960’s before contraception was so reliable. None of us have large families. You can be the most wonderful caring parent ever but you will never be able to give the individual time to each child that they deserve.

Circumstances can change, but the more mouths to feed the harder it is. I saw a news report on a large family and the cost of living crisis, I felt really sorry for the eldest kid who was basically helping run the household. I am one of the younger ones and my older sisters are still deeply resentful regarding their roles helping in the house, they basically didn’t have childhoods.

Thats before you take in to consideration affording anything,