Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think why have so many kids if you can’t afford their presents?

479 replies

yuletidey · 13/12/2022 04:50

Before I start I just want to say I have absolutely nothing against large families, I also understand people will have times in their lives where they struggle.

I recently volunteered for a local to charity, they donate toys to children in need all around the country. I have volunteered for around 6 years around Christmas time to get toys packed. Yesterday I was helping pack boxes as they are really overwhelmed with the demand.

Recently I think the charity has changed their criteria as before anyone could get in touch and they would receive toys, I think the founder was a bit naive there but hey. Now people need to be referred by a school, social worker, support worker etc as a lot of people were taking advantage.

Anyway a woman turned up to the charity yesterday, asking for toys. The young girl working there said they will be giving them out all next week, she mentioned they had changed the criteria. The woman was saying she has ten kids and she was relying on them for toys, she was saying how can I get toys, she has kids from 16 to 1. They will now have to go without and no one bothered to tell her the criteria changed. The young girl apologised and said all updates were on their social media but they can’t update everyone individually. The woman lost her temper saying they have ruined her kids Christmas, it’s the girls fault, she’s ruined 10 kids Christmas.

This went on for a bit until I someone else stepped in but I was just shocked. I appreciate people need help and the pressure of Christmas can’t be nice but this woman has used the toys since they started, in that time she’s had a few children. I realise it’s a touchy subject but I felt so sorry for the young girl as she was really upset at letting children down

OP posts:
TheYearOfSmallThings · 13/12/2022 09:23

Recently I think the charity has changed their criteria as before anyone could get in touch and they would receive toys, I think the founder was a bit naive there but hey. Now people need to be referred by a school, social worker, support worker etc

When you change a system that has been operating for years, you always need to recognise that some people will not get the memo, and you need to have a contingency for dealing with that.

If any of this actually happened, then it would have been appropriate (as a charity, which aims to help rather than create barriers to helping) to give some assistance to this longstanding client, and others who have slipped through the net, while signposting them clearly to the correct referral channel for next year.

SmileyClare · 13/12/2022 09:25

Obviously this is all our fault and we should hand over all our earnings

Hyperbolic nonsense.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 13/12/2022 09:26

They may have had the money to buy Christmas presents for all their kids previously . This cost of living is effecting almost everyone not only the poor. . They may have only recently fell on hard and fire times. Its a bit late and pointless judging once the kids are already here. What do you suggest they do sell a few of them. The horse has long bolted. I think you're in the wrong job op. If it's such an inconvenience then no-one is forcing you to be there. t's not your place to sit on judgement nor condemn or condone.

mydogisthebest · 13/12/2022 09:26

Believeitornot · 13/12/2022 09:09

But what about their fathers?

given the average family has less than 2 children, why are you wasting energy berating a (potentially) mythical women for having lots of children?

Show quote history

It's the women who have the children I believe and, for whatever reason, quite a lot end up with no husband/partner around.

I find it quite hard to believe that the average family has less than 2 children when so many have 3 or even 4. In my village I can only think of 2 families with 2 children and 7 with 3 children and 2 with 4 children. None with only 1 child. All quite young families too so quite possibly could have more children

Heliumburgers · 13/12/2022 09:28

OtterInABox · 13/12/2022 09:14

I believe you shouldn't have more kids than you have bedrooms for, personally

So I disagree with @MamaFirst - I think it's a 'right' for a child to have their own bedroom, not some sort of extravagance.

In some cultures sleeping alone is a cruel punishment.
It is not a right to have their own room. My grandmother shared a bed with 2 of her sisters until she left home. She was very close to them. Her family was very poor, but they were loved and time was made for all 6 of them, they spent time as a family and they laughed.
It wasn't that long ago when it was how many children in a bed, now it's how many children in a room. I'm not blaming just room sharing but I would say families are growing further apart, maybe this sort of attitude plays a factor. Making claims like it is a right for a child to have their own bedroom is ridiculous.

PAFMO · 13/12/2022 09:28

Not sure if others have asked, but @yuletidey first you say you "recently started" volunteering then say you've been doing it for 6 years.

Are you also as elastic with numbers of children as you are with timelines?

5128gap · 13/12/2022 09:29

Two different subjects.
Should people have children they can't afford to provide for?
Should people behave like rude entitled idiots and guilt trip those trying to help them?

Heliumburgers · 13/12/2022 09:29

You don't know how the families circumstances may of changed or anything else, she was probably just panicking.
I'm not sure the role is for you if you judge families especially when you know nothing about them.

mydogisthebest · 13/12/2022 09:30

Aldith · 13/12/2022 09:22

My DH was 7 months old when his dad died of cancer. His dad was just 26 years old. All of a sudden the life his mum had planned went out the window and she was left a single parent who would have struggled if not for extended family including both sets of grandparents. People can be victims of circumstances outside of their control.

Yes as I and others have already said, we know that circumstances can change and that is why if you only have 2 children you will be much more likely to be able to cope.

Believeitornot · 13/12/2022 09:32

mydogisthebest · 13/12/2022 09:26

It's the women who have the children I believe and, for whatever reason, quite a lot end up with no husband/partner around.

I find it quite hard to believe that the average family has less than 2 children when so many have 3 or even 4. In my village I can only think of 2 families with 2 children and 7 with 3 children and 2 with 4 children. None with only 1 child. All quite young families too so quite possibly could have more children

Show quote history

It’s men who provide 50% of the DNA. Just because women bear the child, it doesn’t make them sole responsibility for that child being on this earth.

All this judgement takes away from the point that none of this is the fault of the child.

And as for your anecdotal evidence - the ONS data on children per family is here

TERRRYsnotmine · 13/12/2022 09:32

It's not even the presents I think any more than 3 kids is really pushing it when you consider things like going out for a birthday meal, cinema trip, getting on public transport.

It all adds up.... I honestly don't even know how people afford it! But I'm glad it's not my worry OP.

Heliumburgers · 13/12/2022 09:36

Some people hear low income large family and refuse to believe anything other than they must resemble the Gallaghers.
That isn't actually the reality.

user14728311987 · 13/12/2022 09:36

TheOnlyBeeInYourBonnet · 13/12/2022 05:16

Disadvantage is complex and usually intergenerational.

You can see the cause and effect because you've had a reasonable education, good role models, you're mentally and cognitively well. Volunteer or work in this space long enough and you'll see that's not the case for an alarming number of people.

Completely agree. Husband is one of eleven children, his mother a single parent for most of his life. Eight of those children are now adults. Of those eight only two work - one part time and one full time. All of the women had children young and are now single parents themselves. It wasn't easy for my husband to break the mold.

sqirrelfriends · 13/12/2022 09:42

YANBU OP, some people are always on the take. I’ve just started helping out at a program where people can get clothes, shoes and non perishables donated by the community. Most people are really grateful for whatever they can get to help but some people complain about the selection or the brands and even make a mess. The level of entitlement is huge.

Original poster
yuletidey · 13/12/2022 09:46

Ultimately it was a request that she needed to go through her school/support worker etc.

Its not even that the kids will miss out, if she gets a referral that includes all children they will receive presents. The charity doesn’t say if you have x amount of kids you’re not allowed. It’s my personal thinking that if you realised 6 years ago you couldn’t afford presents. To the point you need to lean on the others for support (no judgement)

OP posts:
BabyFour2023 · 13/12/2022 09:46

I’m pregnant with my 4th and completely agree with you.
Its completely irresponsible and really frustrates me when I hear things like this.
Have the amount of children you can afford.

wildseas · 13/12/2022 09:49

In order to make a considered, thought out, sensible decision about the number of children you will have over the course of your lifetime you need:

  • to be in a relationship where you have control over contraception, family planning and consent
  • Have the confidence and resiliance to stand firm on your decision once you have made it often against pressure from partner/family etc
  • Have done enough self-reflection that you can actively choose what elements of your own childhood you would like to replicate and which to not.
  • Have the time/money/headspace/access to choose effective contraception and be willing to abort in the event of a failure (or never have sex i suppose)
  • Have the financial understanding and budgeting skills to look into the future and understand the lifetime costs of a child (not just how much a baby costs)
  • Have a true understanding of the best circumstances for a child to grow up in, and an aspiration to offer that to your own child.
  • Have a real understanding that you can influence your own destiny, and self-determine your own path
  • Have the planning and organisational skills to put all of that into place, and the decision making skills to decide on it in the first place.

It's hard to believe that people don't have those skills if you come from a happy, stable, middle class background where you had love, time and care growing up. But if the mum had all of those skills, its highly likely she wouldn't be replying on charity for her children's christmas presents, irrespective of how many she had.

This idea of "breaking the cycle" and giving people the skills they need to take themselves out of poverty is hugely hugely difficult to address.

We know that some individuals manage it with natural talent (think of pop stars, footballers); hard work (think of "self-made" business owners) and education. We know that many many charities work hard towards it from all different angles - think about projects running early years support, handing out books to kids, mentoring teens, supporting disadvantaged young people into higher education.

But it really is the holy grail of UK charity work - if you could find a foolproof way to solve it on a population level rather than for individuals you would pretty much eradicate poverty throughout the west.

And incidentally, its why so many charities run open-door policies even though they sometime get taken advantage of. Its not naivety - its because the processing skills needed to navigate a social services referral for xmas presents are beyond the reach of some of the people who need it most. In this situation, in my opinion, best practise would have been to support mum to access a referral rather than turning her away.

RottingAutumnApples · 13/12/2022 09:50

She may not have ten kids. She may be taking toys and selling them on.

name78change · 13/12/2022 09:51

@wildseas thank you for your post. That really helped me contextualise my opinion. Very thought provoking.

lifeinthehills · 13/12/2022 09:51

OtterInABox · 13/12/2022 09:14

I believe you shouldn't have more kids than you have bedrooms for, personally

So I disagree with @MamaFirst - I think it's a 'right' for a child to have their own bedroom, not some sort of extravagance.

It's okay for me to have six then. I even built on an extra room. But I don't think they have the right to their own room. They're just lucky they have one. FWP.

Pascor · 13/12/2022 09:52
  1. Stupid question
  2. There is nothing wrong with larger families if you take care of them
  3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sharing bedrooms and
  4. Anyone volunteering is not a "young girl", she's a woman.
NKFell · 13/12/2022 09:52

I'm single with 4 DC and I completely agree with you! Although I didn't expect to be on my own, it was always a possibility.

There's no woe is me, I'm responsible for the amount of DC I have! That woman is just awful.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 13/12/2022 09:53

BabyFour2023 · 13/12/2022 09:46

I’m pregnant with my 4th and completely agree with you.
Its completely irresponsible and really frustrates me when I hear things like this.
Have the amount of children you can afford.

One day you may not be able to afford the kids you've got. You may be feasting on those words someday. The wheel of fortune changes constantly. No one appreciates getting dictated to and certainly not by someone doing the samething.

Andthisyoushallknow · 13/12/2022 09:54

Aw it's the " deserving poor versus undeserving poor" post again ! How positively Victorian ! Merry Christmas OP

SmileyClare · 13/12/2022 09:55

wildseas · 13/12/2022 09:49

In order to make a considered, thought out, sensible decision about the number of children you will have over the course of your lifetime you need:

  • to be in a relationship where you have control over contraception, family planning and consent
  • Have the confidence and resiliance to stand firm on your decision once you have made it often against pressure from partner/family etc
  • Have done enough self-reflection that you can actively choose what elements of your own childhood you would like to replicate and which to not.
  • Have the time/money/headspace/access to choose effective contraception and be willing to abort in the event of a failure (or never have sex i suppose)
  • Have the financial understanding and budgeting skills to look into the future and understand the lifetime costs of a child (not just how much a baby costs)
  • Have a true understanding of the best circumstances for a child to grow up in, and an aspiration to offer that to your own child.
  • Have a real understanding that you can influence your own destiny, and self-determine your own path
  • Have the planning and organisational skills to put all of that into place, and the decision making skills to decide on it in the first place.

It's hard to believe that people don't have those skills if you come from a happy, stable, middle class background where you had love, time and care growing up. But if the mum had all of those skills, its highly likely she wouldn't be replying on charity for her children's christmas presents, irrespective of how many she had.

This idea of "breaking the cycle" and giving people the skills they need to take themselves out of poverty is hugely hugely difficult to address.

We know that some individuals manage it with natural talent (think of pop stars, footballers); hard work (think of "self-made" business owners) and education. We know that many many charities work hard towards it from all different angles - think about projects running early years support, handing out books to kids, mentoring teens, supporting disadvantaged young people into higher education.

But it really is the holy grail of UK charity work - if you could find a foolproof way to solve it on a population level rather than for individuals you would pretty much eradicate poverty throughout the west.

And incidentally, its why so many charities run open-door policies even though they sometime get taken advantage of. Its not naivety - its because the processing skills needed to navigate a social services referral for xmas presents are beyond the reach of some of the people who need it most. In this situation, in my opinion, best practise would have been to support mum to access a referral rather than turning her away.

Excellent post.

Its disappointing you don’t seem to have budged from your opening opinion op.