To think the encouragement to delay real life is a big cause in the explosion of mental health issues in under 35's ?

[rudolphrainbownose]

Okay, so there is a well documented mental health crisis amongst young people , particularly university students, needing mental health support.

Is it just me or is the current culture of delaying "real adulthood" ( staying at school longer, young marriage/ pregnancy actively discouraged and frowned upon, uni unofficially taking the school leaving age to 23 for middle class young people, staying living at their parents well into their late 20's/ early 30's....)

To me it seems discouraging starting real adult life is fuelling this.

1. Young women are told not to expect "security" in relationships, they are almost told to expect being ghosted by a series of men "not wanting to put a label on it," and going on a series of disastrous online dates is better than settling down young. Look how much marriage amongst under 25's is frowned upon on Mumsnet.

But I don't see many aspects of the dating scene today, ("friends with benefits" being cool, sex often expected without commitment before or afterwards on the first couple of dates, having to actually spell out you don't want the guy you are dating online to continue dating others online, being ghosted and blocked for no reason, being particularly healthy for the mental health of young people). Yet this is sold to them as more empowering than settling down into a steady relationship at a relatively young age....

2. I'll expect to be flamed for this, but the active discouragement of having children in your 20's , probably robs a lot of women of a focus, ( because having your own family is often a nice focus), than drifting around without a purpose gives them. This also leads to probably more people experiencing the panic of miscarriage and infertility , ( risks increasing with age), into their 30's.

3. Active encouragement into University without thinking often leads to a horrendously mentally unhealthy lifestyle.

For those with a passion for the subject, or doing a vocational course that leads to a career, of course university should be supported.

But that is not the case for your average student. Your average student goes to uni because, broadly speaking, it's what their college or sixth form expects of anyone vaguely academic. They pick a subject with no fixed career that they are at best, vaguely interested in, ( managed to scrape a B in business studies A Level, hated it the least, so I'll do it at uni to delay working for three years).

They head to uni to study a subject they are not particularly interested in, ith no idea what it will lead to afterwards. Most, have at most, six hours a week contact time, ( often less post covid). They sleep in late, browse the internet and get smashed a few times a week, ( the majority of students I know do not work in term time). Rinse and repeat. And they wonder why living this not very appealing lifestyle leaves students at poor risk of mental health ? And many are encouraged to take on a masters in a subject they are not interested in, with no direct career, to delay entering the real world for another year. They live in a bubble with people of the same age and inexperience as them. Compare that to a 19 year old office juniour being up and about, learning about the world of work, going for after work drinks with colleagues of a variety of ages ?

And the housing crisis means they are still likely to be living at home, ( especially if they are single), until 30. Often treated like overgrown teenagers, still in the habit of explaining to their parents where they are going of an evening. My friend , ( male), was explaining to me that at 28 he was working himself up to staying the night at his new girlfriends as he was so embarrassed to explain where he was to his parents, ( because if he told them he wouldn't be home for dinner as he was staying at his girlfriend's , they'd realise he was having sex).

In short, is delaying marriage, babies, work , moving out and leaving education actually causing everyone to be directionless and unhappy ?

@NewToWoo I agree that many people just want to have fun in their 20’s, I certainly did. 😂 But, if you’ve got student loans and need to pay your way somehow, even if you’re happy to live on a shoestring, you do need to be qualified to do something!

I was lucky as I’m the last generation before university fees so I didn’t have that to worry about that, I really could live on a shoestring budget and save abit.

@HamBone - it's true there's a lot more pressure now due to student loans. But I still don't think a degree has to be vocational.
DS has several friends who study English. That might seem like a waste of a degree because it's not focused on a single career, but actually opens doors into advertising, marketing, business writing, publicity management, political report writing, journalism, TV and gaming storylining, film, TV and theatre, publishing etc. Loads of careers can grow from non vocational degrees.

There’s a novel coming out next summer called ‘Bonding’ about exactly this. I’d recommend it if anyone has a twenty-something daughter (it’s being released by Picador)

"three male friends who did history/ geography / sociology degrees. ( C grades at A Level). sat around halls/ student houses playing computer games into the early hours, with a maximum six hours contact time a week and rarely getting out of bed before 1.00pm. "

Their choice. I know no one like this. I wouldn't have let ds2 choose a Uni course with so little contact hours. He has loads. I had 20 when I was at Uni years ago.

I agree that there has been too much of a push to get people into Uni. Uni should be there for the brightest students. The mention of vocational courses is a red herring. If the right people go to university it’s the academic pursuit that is the important aspect of university life.

I don’t think the mental health issues in the under 25s can be attributed to a single thing though.

The lack of an identifying unifying British culture has had an effect, people need to belong to a tribe. Religion often has that effect, even shared tv programmes, film. Too much choice leads to lack of common knowledge and experience.

Suspension of reality - trans ideology is a great example. It leads to lack of grounding and active encouragement of dissociation- a major element in many mental health illnesses.

They have grown up being told things that actually have no meaning are the most important things. Humans know these things are fundamentally pointless leading to emptiness.

A focus on the measurable, the objective has taken away the things that truly matter to us and make us individuals

It wouldn't surprise me at all if it coincides with the end of corporal punishment.

Today's young people had long and unforgiving punishments/corrections, time out, grounding, removal of priveledges, long drawn out reminders of how they'd been bad or unworthy, whereas the generations before them got a short sharp smack and life moved on.

I'm not taking about the (too many) children who faced regular beatings, that of course needed/needs to end and I didn't smack my own children, who are now in their 20s but I do wonder if things like the naughty step did more harm than good. In my childhood the knowledge that certain things would bring a smack meant it was never needed very often.

I haven't read the full thread but think you're taking an incredibly complex area with many causes and focusing on just one.

What about other things like:

Helicopter parenting and lack of freedom from a very young age

Society's attitude towards things like consequences for actions (letting kids do whatever and have whatever)

Increased use of screens and less exercise and time outdoors

Lack of extended family and lack of community compared to previous generations

Young people being one of the first generations pretty much guaranteed to have a worse standard of living than their parents. They are extremely unlikely to ever be home owners unless they live in a very cheap area or have substantial family help. They may not even be able to afford to have a family. Surely this is going to be a substantial contributer to anxiety and depression. There is a direct correlation between poverty and mental health issues

Lack of support and services for young people. There used to be lots of family related support like children's centres and now there is nothing.

It's really hard to isolate all these factors and some of them are inter linked (eg children living at home longer is often due to finances rather than delaying adulthood, and inter generational households are common in some countries without the same degree of explosion in mental health issues) but I think narrowing it down to one group of issues is likely to be over simplifying the issue. Especially when you say things like delaying marriage and having a family is likely to lead to MH issues...when the overwhelming evidence from the UK is that women without children and women without marriage are statistically happier than women with those things. This finding is different for different countries and happiness of mothers correlates with subsidised childcare ans maternity leave etc. Which implies finances are an issue for families...which actually indicates that its probably better for women to delay motherhood until they are financially secure if they want to protect their mental health

So we should be saying to girls don't worry about going to uni it won't be needed when you get pregnant in a few years and wave off you husband to work every day when you stay home and then have a few more kids, so then you can say the same to your daughters?

I wholeheartedly believe that the expectation of doing all those things in one's 20s is why there is 3 generations of trauma in my family.

It should be easier for those that want to, of course, but I've seen first hand what happens to the children when it's treated as the only way you can become an 'adult', or someone worthy of respect in society.

My young neighbour has bought her first house age 28 by saving very hard and not throwing cash at clothes holidays and alcohol. She’s a chef in a large chain that’s all! And this is the Cotswolds - very high house prices. Anything is possible if you want it enough .

Did she aye?

Couple of questions. Was she a lone buyer (and if not, what did the other person contribute) and did she have parental help?

I ask because the average house price in the Cotswolds is over £400,000. I'm nearly 40, been working in a profession for nearly a decade, and I couldn't buy in the Cotswolds without having a partner with a similar salary to me. And I've not been on holiday in 5 years, only buy second hand, and don't drink.

I do know people who've bought homes in their 20s, but only in the north and only with partners and/or parents' help.

Statistics prove you wrong op. People who marry young are far more likely to get divorced. People with less education overall are less likely to be high earners and to get on the property ladder.

The lack of an identifying unifying British culture has had an effect, people need to belong to a tribe

People find their own tribe. I’ve just asked my dd and she burst out laughing at the thought of a unifying British culture🤮

l was a student in the 80’s. Relationships then were pretty much as now ime. Lack of comittment or just for sex.

I think the lack of real financial independence because of low wages and unaffordable housing, together with chasing after an Instagram influencer lifestyle and constant comparisons to others who seem to have it all is mostly behind this.

I'm not sure I relate to your comments on relationships - a young woman can fuck around or not fuck around all she likes. She can date, be single, or be in a monogamous relationship if she so chooses on the provision that she can find someone suitable. Young women aren't entitled to meet their perfect partner the second they decide they want to.

I'd also rather claw my eyes out than be one of the girls who married their first boyfriend, bought a new build house in their hometown and still hang around with the exact same group of girls they first met when they were 10 years old.

I know a man who bought a large, four bedroom, three story house - by himself - when he was 28.

He also "afforded it by not drinking alcohol or going out."

The house was £250k. He earned £16k pa.

The truth is his parents and grandparents handed him £150k. Only that doesn't ever get mentioned.

I agree with some parts of your post, eg University not being the right thing for everyone.
But imo you just cannot have this conversation without acknowledging the financial difficulties for young people. You can be doing well in your career, working hard and still really genuinely struggle to afford the basics of what used to be considered a stable life, starting with housing. Without family help it's so hard, and childcare in this country is crazily expensive, again especially if you can't rely on family. I'm from a northern European country with a much stronger welfare system, and I actually see a higher level of self determination among among people in the UK which is because (in my opinion) that state support isn't there so they've found their own paths rather than drift along knowing they'll be fine.
Among people I know in the UK, its not so much that they have been encouraged to delay 'real life', more that the traditional path became unattainable, and people have chosen to find new ways of living, making the best of a bad situation - maybe you can't have stability so embrace flexibility. I have a diverse group of friends (in terms of relationship/child status, 'class' or family wealth privilege, job, where they live in the country) and so many of them are insanely resourceful, creative and think very actively about the type of life they want and how to make it happen.

I think it's more likely the fact they have spent half their lives faced with utterly inadequate healthcare, poor schools, house prices souring beyond their reach, lack of life time career options...

Thousands of percent?!! Maybe you need to retake Maths before you pontificate any more.

My unformed half-baked old-fogey opinion is that there is too much introspection going on. And I'm a bloody psychologist!

I see so much stuff online from people who go on and on about how they're different because they can't do X or Y and that they struggle and need to manage their situation etc. I used to assess learning disabilities so I am fully aware that there are people who genuinely struggle with day to day life. But it seems to me (from a distance) that some young people really believe that there are adults out there who effortlessly remember everything, who are totally on top of everything and organised, who never get confused/find something difficult and therefore, if they struggle with any of these things there's something wrong with them and they need special help or support or medication. They seem to believe they have to be perfect and if they're not then they need fixing. It's so much pressure! I have literally never once in my whole life met anyone who is on top of things, who never forgets things or who doesn't find a lot of adult life quite stressful and difficult - to me finding life quite a slog is just normal and to be expected. Life is just bloody hard. I wonder if some young people, having been quite coddled and supported, find that difficult to accept? My parents were rather shit but they did make me just get on with stuff on my own, so I always felt I could just figure stuff out even if I wasn't sure. It seems like a lot of young people are lacking that oomph somehow - they're tentative and worried.

And all this bollocks about how the next generation has it worse, the future is so terrible - where is this coming from? If a lot of people believe that then no wonder they feel defeated!

It's worth noting that there's been a definite societal shift from ignoring your kids and letting them run wild to being very invested in their wellbeing and wanting the absolute best for them. I'm not saying that's a bad shift but I wonder if it's backfired a bit? Friends who are uni lecturers talk about parents ringing up on behalf of their adult children to complain about results and talk about how their child is ill or struggling - that would never have happened when I was at uni - my parents had no idea what I was doing day to day, never mind actually intervening! I definitely think kids have to be allowed to get hurt, make mistakes and fail and feel all the pain and disappointment in a safe environment before they leave home, so that they feel they can cope and get on with things without being too fearful. I don't think constantly protecting and supporting children right up to adulthood does them any good at all - it makes them feeble and unsure.

There is a lot to unpack here OP. I don’t disagree with your underlying premise that responsibility is a very important part of ‘growing up’ and can help people feel more settled and connected to the world and others.

But I think picking on university as encouraging young people to be feckless and irresponsible is correlation, not causation. It goes back further than that. I was thinking the other day about the housework me and my siblings were expected to do and wondered how many young people are never expected to do anything of the sort? Probably loads! The number of young people whose parents still seem to run their lives well into their 20s is disturbing. So naturally they struggle when real life begins and it’s bloody hard work!

There need to be more chances to earn money for kids like there used to be.
From 13 me and my brother shared a paper round (I put the leaflets in, he delivered), I worked after school in a grocers, I babysat for about 3 different families from age 14. I have always had a strong work ethic, Worked through college and Uni. Moved out at 16 and worked all my life. Didn't have children till I was 36 though - I was enjoying my life too much!

I think it's more about the total lack of available work for school aged kids. From 14 to 16 they either do nothing or become runners for county lines. Either is a crap choice.

There's also no real opportunity to flat share for teens like there used to be. All flats have been done up and made into AirBnB's. Nothing left for the teens. I never use Air BnB purely from a moral point of view that it's stealing flats from young people everywhere.

Everyone I know who settled down young, settled down with the wrong guy and suffered the consequences.

My first boyfriend was an abusive arse because a lot of 18 year old boys don't understand that women aren't just for sex or making them look good..(ok maybe it was just him..). If I had married him I would have killed myself eventually. Statistically young people relationships are the most likely to be abusive and thank God I didn't settle.

I guess what I'm saying is . . . there's not much opportunity for independence nowadays like there was in the 80's and 90's. No work for young teens, no affordable flat shares. Without independence you can't really develop resilience and strength of character. Perhaps this makes you prone to anxiety and depression as you are less in control of your destiny?

If something was £1 and it now costs £100, how many % is that..

Young women are told not to expect "security" in relationships, they are almost told to expect being ghosted by a series of men "not wanting to put a label on it," and going on a series of disastrous online dates is better than settling down young. Look how much marriage amongst under 25's is frowned upon on Mumsnet.

My late mum (rampant Catholic) would have called this a 'sex before marriage' problem @rudolphrainbownose . She was firmly of the view that women putting out before they had a ring on it were doing themselves no favours and in fact, were dragging women's lib back into the dark ages. . She did, however, acknowledge that it's very difficult to put the lid back on the box once the geni has been set free.