To think the encouragement to delay real life is a big cause in the explosion of mental health issues in under 35's ?

[rudolphrainbownose]

Okay, so there is a well documented mental health crisis amongst young people , particularly university students, needing mental health support.

Is it just me or is the current culture of delaying "real adulthood" ( staying at school longer, young marriage/ pregnancy actively discouraged and frowned upon, uni unofficially taking the school leaving age to 23 for middle class young people, staying living at their parents well into their late 20's/ early 30's....)

To me it seems discouraging starting real adult life is fuelling this.

1. Young women are told not to expect "security" in relationships, they are almost told to expect being ghosted by a series of men "not wanting to put a label on it," and going on a series of disastrous online dates is better than settling down young. Look how much marriage amongst under 25's is frowned upon on Mumsnet.

But I don't see many aspects of the dating scene today, ("friends with benefits" being cool, sex often expected without commitment before or afterwards on the first couple of dates, having to actually spell out you don't want the guy you are dating online to continue dating others online, being ghosted and blocked for no reason, being particularly healthy for the mental health of young people). Yet this is sold to them as more empowering than settling down into a steady relationship at a relatively young age....

2. I'll expect to be flamed for this, but the active discouragement of having children in your 20's , probably robs a lot of women of a focus, ( because having your own family is often a nice focus), than drifting around without a purpose gives them. This also leads to probably more people experiencing the panic of miscarriage and infertility , ( risks increasing with age), into their 30's.

3. Active encouragement into University without thinking often leads to a horrendously mentally unhealthy lifestyle.

For those with a passion for the subject, or doing a vocational course that leads to a career, of course university should be supported.

But that is not the case for your average student. Your average student goes to uni because, broadly speaking, it's what their college or sixth form expects of anyone vaguely academic. They pick a subject with no fixed career that they are at best, vaguely interested in, ( managed to scrape a B in business studies A Level, hated it the least, so I'll do it at uni to delay working for three years).

They head to uni to study a subject they are not particularly interested in, ith no idea what it will lead to afterwards. Most, have at most, six hours a week contact time, ( often less post covid). They sleep in late, browse the internet and get smashed a few times a week, ( the majority of students I know do not work in term time). Rinse and repeat. And they wonder why living this not very appealing lifestyle leaves students at poor risk of mental health ? And many are encouraged to take on a masters in a subject they are not interested in, with no direct career, to delay entering the real world for another year. They live in a bubble with people of the same age and inexperience as them. Compare that to a 19 year old office juniour being up and about, learning about the world of work, going for after work drinks with colleagues of a variety of ages ?

And the housing crisis means they are still likely to be living at home, ( especially if they are single), until 30. Often treated like overgrown teenagers, still in the habit of explaining to their parents where they are going of an evening. My friend , ( male), was explaining to me that at 28 he was working himself up to staying the night at his new girlfriends as he was so embarrassed to explain where he was to his parents, ( because if he told them he wouldn't be home for dinner as he was staying at his girlfriend's , they'd realise he was having sex).

In short, is delaying marriage, babies, work , moving out and leaving education actually causing everyone to be directionless and unhappy ?

I disagree with absolutely every word you've said.

You seem to emulate a goal where women have little to aspire to in life other than procreating as young as possible with the first man who will have them. And that women can't have purpose outside of raising children.

You seem to be suggesting that education for its own sake is a bad idea and that it should all be limited to what is vocationally needed and women should be chivvied into having babies as early as possible.

Yes there's a lot of debt involved in studying and yes students piss about and waste money.

But the world you present seems like some awful Gilead manifesto. Just grim.

You seem to be suggesting that education for its own sake is a bad idea and that it should all be limited to what is vocationally needed.

@Thepeopleversuswork I agree that ideally education shouldn’t be vocationally limited and mine certainly wasn’t. The problem is that most people have to be able to earn as soon as they graduate-and if they aren’t qualified in anything that helps them achieve that pretty quickly, it’s difficult.

If you have parents who can/will support you until you find your feet, it’s much easier. But not everyone has that.

People said the same thing about students when I was one in the 80s and when my parents were students in the 60s. As a group we ended up with better careers than those who didn't do degrees though and I don't think any of us regret having children in our 30s rather than our 20s. It meant that we had decent careers and good salaries.

I need you to be a little bit more clear about what you are asking. But I will say I haven’t been very clear with my intentions in my previous post.

My point isn’t that all women need to run to marriage and kids or that they need to completely forget higher education and career. But that there is a balance to be had and that I feel we are on a path to almost neglecting family and love. There are going to be a lot of hurting sad people down the line.

Both are valid choices but just like marriage and children aren’t for everyone neither is higher education and career. And quite frankly I think we are failing the next generation by posting this idea that there is a cookie cutter plan that works for everyone.

There isn’t. Life doesn’t always go as planned. I went to university and did everything right but I didn’t get the job or career that I wanted. I felt like a failure. My parents went on and on about how awful marriage is and it’s a trap and all. But they failed to realize that I did things very different from them. Their plan for me didn’t work out. Marriage and children actually turned out very nicely for myself. But I also didn’t get pregnant and married at the age of 18.

Going from one extreme to the other just means that instead of getting to the bottom of why we are scared of marriage and children we are instead creating another problem. Until we have our problems head on and resolve them we will just keep continuing a cycle of suffering!

Sad and lonely in a terrible marriage with children and regrets? Let’s create sad and lonely children with university debt and no family, legacy or fulfilling relationships!

Oh hold on, is the poster part of the tradwife thing? Creepy if so.

I'm in my early 20s and can relate to a lot of your original post. You make many good points, although I don't agree with everything you listed.

The lack of security in relationships and being expected to be happy with casual sex and short-term relationships in the same way that men are is hugely detrimental to women and women's self esteem.

The sex-positive feminist movement from the past 10 years has caused a lot of insecurity in young women, creating pressure to perform sexually for men in a porn-star fashion. Women now feel it's a requirement to be sexually liberated and 'kinky' for men, and are competing amongst each other to be the least 'vanilla'.

There's loads of young women now talking about how damaging it has been to their mental health. There seems to be a huge shift in opinion on this sex-positive and casual relationship culture recently, especially on tiktok. And sexual conservatism appears to be making a comeback.

Have to go out in a minute so can't make a longer post addressing all your points unfortunately, but I definitely see a lot of what you're saying.

@PissedOffAmericanWoman

I was referring to your comment that Millennials are portrayed as spoiled teenagers by the media, whereas in fact they’re now full-fledged adults! What’s your impression of how the media portrays the actual teenagers and v. young adults (Gen Z’s)?

I personally think they’re viewed as somewhat serious and more focused than say my generation was. I’m just curious as to whether you have that impression as well.

How sad that having a degree is seen by many as only being useful if it leads directly to a job. How about broadening your knowledge, reading widely, encountering a broader range of views and philosophies. We need an educated population who are able to hold their leaders to account, not a population of serfs dominated by the well-educated minority.

Nope, it's living in a capitalist world. People can barely afford to have kids, pay the bills, renting forever. We have ruthless, greedy people in power who are happy to milk us, then throw us under the bus and there's not much we can do besides strike. I don't think any of this is new, it's just people are more aware and get help now. I look at my grandparents and parents who married, had kids young, bought homes and they have had mental health problems too. But they didn't have the help or awareness that is available now which made their problems worse (and passed them down on to their kids). I'm glad more young people are learning to look after themselves and not just do what is expected of them by older generations at the expense of what they really want. Kids really aren't for everyone, wish more people realised that.

@Forever42 well yes I agree but when a degree costs upwards of £20,000 plus living expenses it’s not as simple as being well educated for the sake of it

Wow there are just so many ideas in here it's a giant mess:

• yes, online dating etc has put young women in a horrible position
• yes, the housing market is completely fucked
• yes, maybe uni isn't the right choice for some people
• no, "real life" isn't having a mortgage and kids?!?! Wtaf
• OP is a moron who can't distinguish between "three of my mates from uni" and "the entire population of the UK"
• None of these things are fixed with some retrograde 1950s "women need a baby to have purpose in life" BS

(Unless OP is trying to goad everyone into a giant fight before Xmas, in which case, you win)

Fuck off @rudolphrainbownose! Staying in education (until 26, PhD) resulted directly in my career, which led to me meeting and marrying DH and being able to buy a house. I did start trying for my children in my 20's and still needed IVF. You are a goady shitehawk!

I agree. I think gen Z’s seem to have a more fair portrayal in the media. I am friends with a few myself but they do seem a bit lost but perhaps it’s the age they are at as they are still figuring out who they are and what they want from life in their early twenties and such. (Well I am friends with the older end of gen z though technically my 13 yo niece is considered gen z.

Oh for goodness sake. Studying to PHD level would suggest you are obviously either very interested or very talented at the subject, ( most likely both), and as you say yourself, the PHD linked directly to your career. You were clearly not living a directionless life if you were talented/ motivated enough to study to PHD level. I actually said in my opening post that studying a subject you are genuinely passionate about is a good thing.

The people I was criticising weren't anywhere near PHD level study. Can you not see the difference in having the direction, drive and motivation for PHD level study; or picking your "least worst" A Level, which you still dislike, have no real interest in, and spend years pissing about doing the bare minimum of academic or paid work to gain a 2:2 or 3rd ? Can you see why I might think the latter group might have been better served mental health wise learning a trade/ skill/ apprenticeship instead ? I don't see how that is anyway insulting to the group who have a genuine passion for ancient history/ geology/ modern languages etc to suggest that those who have no passion or interest in the subject at all, and no intention to do anything beyond the bare minimum shouldn't be there.

R.E your point "I started trying for children in my 20's and still needed IVF", that is my point. None of us no our actual fertility until we start trying. Someone who starts trying for a baby at 25/26/27/28 and then finds out they have fertility issues, has a lot more of a chance of getting successful fertility treatment than someone who, ( through no fault of their own, because of economic and societal pressures/ encouragement), left trying for children until 36/37/38/39. For many of course they will be able to conceive into their late 30's/ early 40's without issue. But, if you do have fertility issues, you have a lot more time to access sucessful treatment if you find out at 28 as opposed to 38. I don't know why that's considered an unkind or controversial thing to say.

It’s not news that young people are struggling because the tradition rites of passage of setting up your own home and building a family are no longer an option. It’s simply too expensive.

So we find other things to do instead, and they are superficially more appealing but they don’t give us the purpose and meaning that we crave from life.

OP you still haven’t answered my question, do you know what 10+ years of austerity has done to this country? 🙄

Your view is a bit too simple and missing the big picture. You need to scratch the surface a big deeper and ask why?

I agree dating looks horrendous in your twenties these days. I don't think settling down earlier is the answer though. Why do some people settle down earlier? Generally they are people who are close to their families (lead quite insular lives) and are not particularly ambitious. I would have resented this life and not had the opportunities in life that have made my life interesting and enjoyable.

Why do people have children later? I didn't want children in my twenties, nor could I have afforded them. I wanted a stable job/career and house prior to having children and I'm so glad I did for my own security. I am in one of the vocational jobs you mention and I would have struggled to do a degree/climb the career ladder with children. In fact we are barely getting by with 2 FT working adults on a senior wages in the COL crisis.

Why do people go onto do these degrees and end up unhealthy lifestyles? This goes back to how we treat children these days - micromanaged, lack of freedom/responsibility. Curriculum and exam system which rewards regurgitating information/ achieving grades and not critical thinking, curiosity or creativity. School being one size fits all. This is not a criticism of teachers btw. Lack of recognition that part time work is as important as studying IMHO as it teaches you different skills. Many teens - particularly boys end up on games consoles in their spare time and have little motivation. The fact many jobs require a degree level of education.

Society has changed and the issues effecting young people are complex and multifactorial. The 2008 recession and decade of austerity/ then covid has had a huge effect on jobs/ education and mental health.

You put this very well. Thank you for giving me the words I couldn’t find to say it.

I agree with everything you have said OP.
my DH have worked for 25 years having never been to university. We bought our first home at 22 and spent every evening and weekend doing it up sacrificing take aways, new clothes and nights out. We got married, had 2 children and moved 3 more times by the time we were 30.
Conversely, my brother went to university and met his DW there, both studying pointless subjects that never translated into a career. They didn’t work during this time just went out, got drunk and ate junk while sinking into more and more debt. After graduating they worked in NMW jobs for a few months then went travelling for a year. Came back and lived with parents for a few years before finally buying a house. 20 years later they still behave like students, have mediocre jobs not remotely related to their degrees. They left having children way too late so started IVF in their mid-thirties for 4 years which was unsuccessful.
OP your post is very observant and I think you have made some very valid points.

No 22 year olds will be able to buy the first home in this day and age. Not many 32 year olds will either.

You sound awfully judgemental towards your brother, his wife and anyone else who dared go to university to study “pointless subjects”.

Awful comments regarding trying to start a family. How is mid 30’s far too late?

Just horrible.

Didn’t sound judgemental at all merely observant of the consequences of their choices. Mid thirties is very late to try as a lot of problems are much harder to resolve. Some people go into early menopause in mid thirties. Honestly I think a lot of good this have come from technological advancement but the side effect is that is humans can’t deal with the fact that we are very human and technology can’t save us from growing pains, the consequences of life choices.

Many still can’t cope with the fact that we become sexually mature in our teens and are in denial about it.

To the point that they want to hide sex and romance from their children setting them up for sexual abuse. If it wasn’t for the fact that when go through menopause in their 40’s I often feel that society would push us to wait later and later and later.

We can’t and we shouldn’t though. How long must one put of living our lives? Falling in love? Love is scary and full of heart ache and mistakes. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. It’s full of a lot of hard lessons. But they are necessary lessons. They teach us to appreciate what matters in life and to be kinder and more loving people. They help us understand ourselves better too.

I honestly thought about being childless because of pressure from my parents but I couldn’t shake the feeling that to do so (for myself at least) felt like giving up on people, on humanity. Do with that information what you will. I understand others won’t share this sentiment. But I’m glad I did it. It’s honestly helped me understand myself more as a person and taught me to be more loving. Please don’t mistake this as me saying everyone should become parents. Because I don’t believe that. But I think that many people who would enjoy the opportunity are losing it.

How many University courses are of any use at all? When it's clearing I tend to have a look through the lists and never fail to be amazed at many of the useless sounding courses. A lot of what is done in University would be better done in a more practical way, the old 'sandwich' courses, 2/3 days in College and 2/3 days with an employer. My former Headteacher was appalled that his son was going to University to study Golf Course design, it's an ideal topic for a sandwich course or apprenticeship. Young people would not have the unnecessary debt and would probably mature more quickly.

Exactly. If you choose to mate with twats then more fool you. There's decent guys out there, you don't have to go for the arseholes.

You sound awfully judgemental towards your brother, his wife and anyone else who dared go to university to study “pointless subjects”.

If the course you choose to study doesn't lend itself to some form of employment then surely it is useless, by definition. It's not judgemental, it's the reality of life.

In theory I agree, @Forever42 . But people still need to pay their bills and service their student debt, so most have no choice but to study something that will result in a reasonable income. Unless you have some other financial resources, such as parents willing to subsidize you well beyond university, an inheritance, etc. How many people have that nowadays?