Daughter embarrassed by sexual gesture at work

[G00d0mens]

I’m posting as I’m unsure if I have unrealistic expectations of society in general or if I am actually being unreasonable. Mumsnet has been a great help in the past.

Last night I got a text from my daughter to say that she felt very humiliated and wanted to come home (she works in our local pub).

She was shaking a cocktail and saw a manager make a juggling gesture with his hands (clearly a boob related gesture) to some customers who said « Don’t stop » when she stopped. She is a young 18 and has since said she felt very ashamed and angry after what had happened.

I did go down but she was talking to the boss and trying to sort it out and wanted to see out her shift. She was keen to know what actions would be taken as a result. For context, she is on a zero hour contract and worried about losing her job, which she loves in general.

She has gone in today but has said that it isn’t going well. I feel torn as I want to do what she wants but also can’t forget that when I was her age similar had happened to me. Probably to a lot of us? I was too embarrassed and ashamed to tell anyone (thought I would be blamed).

I thought she could take out a grievance if nothing is sorted but wondered as well -AIBU - she works behind a bar and this is to be expected? How sad if it is - I thought we were better as a society.

Advice please - she doesn’t want to lose her job but is also quite upset.

Thanking you all in advance.

The forum is full of posters who are afraid to open their mouth and say boo to their DPs, MILs, friends, etc.

Yet many think an 18 year-old should be able to deal with sexual harassment from a middle-aged manager by herself.

Dear Goodomens, I very rarely post but wanted to say how sorry I am that your daughter has experienced this. Many of us "put up with it" back in the day, but thank goodness time has moved on. These customers know it's unacceptable, and it seems extraordinary that we are even having to have the conversation about treading carefully around her manager as if it's she who should be ashamed not him. I can't speak with authority about his HR situation, but it's hard to believe that he should not be subjected to disciplinary action. Are there any other staff or regulars who could back up her complaint?
Women do have more protection now, in theory if not in practice. I work in the courts and was involved in a stalking case last week involving a spurned lover which I suspect would never have made it to court twenty years ago, but he is now facing a prison sentence. And did you see that sexual harassment is likely to be made a specific criminal offence? Guardian this week: "After years of lobbying by campaigners, the UK government has backed a private member’s bill, tabled by the former business secretary Greg Clark, which will make sexual harassment in public space a crime." Obviously this would be too late for your daughter but I hope it gives you some back-up - which could maybe feature in any complaint - that this kind of behaviour is no longer "OK" and women should not have to put up with it an occupational or life hazard.
The only caution I might suggest is that however young your 18 year old might be, and I can appreciate how extra hard that must make it for both of you, she is an adult. I am sure she will really appreciate your support but beyond the love, support and confidence building you can give her at home, it's for her to sort out with her employer, even if that means bringing you along as a wingman. Apologies, I am sure you know all this already.
I am quietly furious that the poor girl feels ashamed when it is her boss and the punters who leer over a young woman, taking advantage of her being in a wor situation and fearful of losing her job, that should be hanging their heads. For what it's worth, please send her some Mumsnet hugs. Wishing you both strength. I can't imagine how I would feel if it were my own daughter in a few years' time.

Agree with Coldec. These men wouldn't be laughing so hard if it was their daughter. How sad that yet another young girl has had to be subject to something like this. Doesn't matter what environment it's in, especially if it's a workplace.

Even sadder that some women think it's to be accepted. They're probably the same ones spouting the not all men crap

She absolutely should be formally challenging this and can be involved if she needs support. I’ve been in a formal work complaint situation and I was allowed to take a colleague or union rep into the meeting with me for support. You sitting behind her quietly while she speaks her mind is not interfering in how the matter is dealt with. I remember waitressing when I was 15, wearing a tshirt with my name on the front right and some creepy guy asking me what the other one was called. I was so embarrassed and laughed it off because I didn’t have the confidence or maturity to deal with it better. It’s depressing that so many think sexual harassment is a rite of passage and should be ignored.

When I was 18, over40 years ago, I got a job in a local pub, I lasted one shift, the landlord was a creepy man. The 'uniform' was supposed to be a short black skirt and a white blouse. I got told off for wearing trousers.
When I spoke to others, they all basically said, that's who he is, you get used to it.
I was not worldly wise at that age but there was no way I was going anywhere near that job again.
I find it sad, that in the 21st century, girls/women are still subjected to this kind of behaviour in pubs.

Its not. The service offered by the pub is the provision of drinks, and the duties of the bar staff to serve them. Toleration of sexual harassment is not part of the job or the territory, and if punters don't know the boundaries, then managers should make sure they learn. It really isn't up to young women to lock themselves safely away, avoiding certain jobs, until they are too old to be of interest to creepy men.

I was 14 the first time I was sexually pestered by a man ( at work; he was the boss at my Saturday job). I told my mother (who knew him , she got me the job.) Instead of wading in on my behalf, she told me what I should do to stop him. I did it. It worked. He kept his distance and never touched me again; I kept my job. I was empowered for life with the confidence a woman can stand up for herself .

Back off. Your daughter NEEDS to sort this out for herself.

Just another thought: it might be that given how understandably upset she is, she would feel worse and more ashamed in the long run if she does nothing about it. Good luck to both of you.

No it is not “to be expected” that a woman should be openly sexually harassed in ANY workplace, regardless of whether that workplace sells alcohol. Don’t be a handmaiden.

I think the point being made is that formal action (grievance) is appropriate and that HAS to come from DD as the employee. Obviously its right for the OP to give practical and emotional support with that. But the problem with the OP going in directly is all that the manager learns is that his employee has a mum to be reckoned with. The OP won't be there all the time, so DD needs to be enabled to be a woman to be reckoned with in her own right. It shouldn't be necessary, but the way things are the sooner we empower our daughters the better.

Small organisation? Move on, hope he goes to hell.

Big organisation, bring grievance, resign and claim sexual harassment, contact ACAS to start early conciliation proceedings then file a Tribunal claim.

That is particularly vile - they will have daughters and grand-daughters of their own.

How would they feel if it was their teenage child being embarrassed and objectified like this?

Absolutely foul! Please do take this further, for your daughter and the other young women who have to put up with this.

You mention she is a "young 18" - I would bet my life he wouldn't DARE try this sort of sh*t with an older or more worldly woman. Pig!

Absolutely!

5128gap · Today 17:14

The service offered by the pub is the provision of drinks, and the duties of the bar staff to serve them. Toleration of sexual harassment is not part of the job or the territory, and if punters don't know the boundaries, then managers should make sure they learn.

Exactly, it's absolutely not part of the job and it shouldn't be expected, never mind accepted. Our Metro has signs saying that verbal abuse and assault of staff will not be tolerated, as does the Post Office parcel pick up depot.

Nobody should be harassed, or abused in their place of work by anyone at all, whether customers, or colleagues.

It's pretty depressing to see so many posts telling her to grow a thick skin and suck it up.

Yuck, unacceptable behaviour, but agree with others that your DD needs to take a stand for herself.

I worked in a pub when I was 18 in around the mid-2000s, the main beer brand sold there was called 6X. The brewery came up with a HILARIOUS load of puns which they plastered all over our uniform t-shirts - 6X GOD for the men and 6X KITTEN for the women. I flat out refused to wear a t-shirt with 6X KITTEN across my boobs and said I’d buy my own plain t-shirt to wear instead. They didn’t argue with me.

because I didn’t have the confidence or maturity to deal with it better
of course you didnt at 15, it's difficult at any age to know how to respond, and that's exactly why they do it, makes my blood boil
I'm often in situations where there are young lads who look shy & nervous, I know I could very easily intimidate them and make them feel uncomfortable, I just wouldnt and it sickens me that men my age do it as a go to response.
They are despicable rancid predators

It is horrible behaviour and there is clearly an acceptable culture at this place. Best thing she can do is to not return and put her efforts into getting a new job.

Sadly, I can’t see any good would come out of your daughter making a formal grievance.

I would bet my life he wouldn't DARE try this sort of sht with an older or more worldly woman. Pig!*
some of them will start on the easy targets and work their way up tho, all girls should have training on how best to deal with this, maybe young lads too?

Agree @Soothsayer1 - inadequate men fel powerful bullying easy targets.

i wish I'd had training on dealing with this sort of nasty behaviour myself. (I don't get it now that I'm OLD 😟)

all girls should have training on how best to deal with this, maybe young lads too?

No girls should need trained. Perhaps if we recognise that the problem is the men that would be a start?

You need to live in the world you’re actually in, not the one you wish you were in.

If this had happened to me at 18, I'd have called him a dirty pervert, laughed and not given it a second thought. Life was simpler 30 years ago.

What’s going to happen if she raises a formal complaint? She won’t work there any more.

If she feels this is worth it, more power to her.

What might be better if she learns appropriate strategies for dealing with this sort of thing at the source. Her life will be littered with it.

It’s not necessary about being young. I am 51 and work in a male dominated industry (construction). I could talk at great length about inappropriate comments and gestures of which I’ve been on the receiving end. I tear a strip off the offender (it’s ALWAYS the builders) who feels they can comment. It usually ends with an apology from them and hopefully it sows a seed, but you can’t always reason with morons.

Some of the responses on this thread are so depressing

this is a large chain. They will take sexual harassment seriously because it’s unlawful (and because it’s wrong) and they won’t want to end up in a costly tribunal that looks terrible on social media. They have a legal duty to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.

Women should not and do not have to accept this crap. The Equality Act is quite clear. There is a planned enhanced obligation for employees in this area as well due soon so this is even more on any HR departments radar. As it should be. A safe working environment is a legal obligation.

For employers that should have said not employees