Told I was 'phobic' for not using pronouns!

[NewStartIn50s]

Asked for my preferred pronouns and I said ' I don't use them', pushed on what I use to refer to myself and I said I don't use on emails or when I introduce myself or at all. Apparently, if I use them I am showing inclusivity to others and being accepting. I'm not quite a dinosaur yet but why are these things forced on us. I don't have a beard (yet) and I think you can tell what I am/but does it really matter if you can't.

So AIBU

YANBU - don't have to use pronouns if you don't want to

YABU - you should state what your preferred pronouns are

YANBU

we keep being reminded at work that we should add them for our emails

the decisions i make are relevant to my work not what sex I am or what to be perceived as

I don't mean to jump on you here. Your post highlights a very good reason why compelling people to fly their preferred pronouns is actually harmful.

But... Queer is another Gender Ideology thing I'd like a bit of push back against. It has evolved to become an umbrella term that can be used by anyone, even the straights. It has become so diffuse a term that it now includes the fetishists (furries at pride anyone?), those with paraphilias and the people that just want to feel a bit special.

I'm not sure how to really articulate my thoughts properly on this but I know it doesn't have any place in Pride and it IMO makes a mockery of the LGB and tbh the T as well.

My thoughts as a B.

That’s perfect!

@fannyfartlet I just want to clarify I'm not having a pop at your friend either at all!

Have just re-read and could see it being taken that way, I'm just musing out loud about the use of the term "Queer" and what means.

Yes, at my workplace it's currently optional but "strongly encouraged" in regular EDI updates, and the 100% adoption from a certain level of management upwards clearly shows it's not considered optional for them.

I wish we could get anything like as much traction getting them to recognise the "chaps like us" bias that's seeing nice but average men consistently promoted over better women.

I guess adding a pronouns and brackets decoration to the email sig is an immediate EDI "payoff" and requires no change in what you actually do, while making changes that would actually adddress the bias is hard and slow.

I've never seen this happen once in my career, which is lucky as I'm not sure I'd be able to react in a non confrontational manner. I very much like the 'protected characteristics' response though, this has been stored for if it ever comes up.

I've just had a look at flouncers corner 😂

I have a gender neutral first name and refuse to use pronouns for myself. It’s no ones business at all. Just like I don’t answer what language I speak at home or if I identify as a certain minority.

Whoever it was, doesn't sound very " accepting " or " inclusive " !

Funny that, eh?!

@Shoxfordian · Today 17:53
" How hard would it be to just say she/her?"

Why should he/she? Why should anyone join in with someone elses game if they don't want to?

Eurgh I hate MN
We all have pronouns and you all obviously know that. Talking about an 'agenda' is so embarrassing

Less than 1% believe in the new gender religion, so why the fuck should the rest of us have to start declaring pronouns just so they can feel 'safe' or 'included' or any of the other emotionally charged words used in order to pander to their identity issues and faux oppression.

Are they really so mentally fragile that they can't cope if others don't declare pronouns? Because they have no right to put responsibility for their mental health onto others.
If they dont want others to correctly sex them then by all means, they can ask to be referred to as they choose but no one should be forced to agree with the sexist, homophobic, utterly batshit, contradictory, feelings based gender identity ideology.

If you use 'cis' it shows that you are happy with women no longer being allowed to state they are a separate distinct sex class from men and instead being reduced to a special womany essence or feeling that men can somehow magically have too.

You might be happy to be complicit in your own oppression but I'm not.

I have a gender-neutral name and title, thanks to my parents and a PhD. It’s useful. I’m damned if I’m going to negate that with she/her pronouns till someone has sorted out sexism in my field of work.

@soulinablackberrypie the word 'cis' is just so offensive to me. That you use it to refer to yourself already signifies that you are someone who at some level subscribes to the gender woo and maybe that's why you have no issue with pronoun faff.

I try to be respectful of others' beliefs. It is your business if you believe in the idea of gender identity and the idea of cis and that you accept what this means more broadly and widely. But it is hard. The same as my Christian friend who believes that her husband is the head of the household and that she should submit to him as "man submits to the Lord." I get that it's her decision, but it makes me pretty uncomfortable and I have to work hard to let it all go.

What I really can't understand is why people who are on board with pronouns and cis etc and breezily hand wave it all away because they believe themselves to be privileged and making small easy compromises to help those much less fortunate who have feelings is important, just cannot allow anyone to have equal feelings the other way. Those are never to be listened to.

I am perhaps jumping into the frying pan here but I genuinely ask this in good faith.

Those who don’t want to disclose their pronouns in their emails etc., fair enough. But what about if someone specifically asks your pronouns so they know how to refer to you? Would you prefer that people just always use your name? Or guess? Using someone’s name over and over seems clumsy to me and an odd way to go when we’ve been using pronouns for years without a second thought.

I do see the point about it being potentially outing and the protected characteristics issues. Just wondering if people’s general issues are with the email, or with ever disclosing them at all.

But what about if someone specifically asks your pronouns so they know how to refer to you?

I genuinely don't care. The vast majority of people don't.

But what about if someone specifically asks your pronouns so they know how to refer to you?

Humans are actually very good at identifying each others sex. It's an evolutionary thing. There would be absolutely no need for anyone to ask what my pronouns are. It is obvious.

"we’ve been using pronouns for years without a second thought."

Exactly.

No second thought, no hidden meaning, no using them as a vehicle to demonstrate our support for an ideology we feel is damaging and harmful, no actual lying by performing mental and linguistic gymnastics to refer to someone in a way that is utterly unnatural to us.

I've got absolutely no issue with pronouns being used grammatically appropriately but that's a very different thing to choosing how others refer to me, advertising it and policing everyone for compliance...

All fair answers! Just trying to understand where people are coming from. I look fairly androgynous so people often refer to me by the ‘wrong’ ones and I also don’t particularly mind, but if people ask I will say.

Eh, I didn't get it until I gave it a try and people stopped assuming I was a man over email just because I type very directly. I have an unusual first name and it can be hard to tell what to use for me unless I'm standing in front of you. Then again, I'm an X-chromosome typical woman and grow a beard (dodgy ovaries) so I rock a bit of mid-week stubble too, so it's not always clear cut to look at me. If people want a bit of a verbal hint in a professional setting, that's cool.

I don't think it should be mandatory though.

unherd.com/2022/03/the-liberal-case-against-pronouns/

This is an excellent article from Andrew Doyle on the subject!

But what about if someone specifically asks your pronouns so they know how to refer to you?

Until very recently, nobody seemed to have any issue figuring this out. I’d assume, if they think hard enough, they’ll probably figure it out.

And if not, well I don’t really care. 3rd person pronouns are typically used when I’m not around so it really does me no harm whatsoever.

You are missing the point 🙄

Well…

I’m a woman. I’ve always known I’m a woman. Everyone else has always known I’m a woman, even without me saying a word. People have managed to use pronouns without any difficulty for eons.

So if I somehow find out that you’ve referred to me as a ‘he’ or ‘fairy’ or ‘zimmerframeself’…guess what?

I couldn’t give a shit. Because I know that I’m woman, every cell of me. Your perception of me doesn’t matter, it doesn’t change my reality. it doesn’t bother me if you made a mistake, or a joke or were just for some reason confused.

Funny that.

Channel your inner annoying toddler -

"Why do you need to know that"

 <span class="italic">It's office policy</span>

"But Why?"

Ad infinitum

😂😂

It used to be common to put your title in parentheses after your name in correspondence, like “yours sincerely, J Smith (Mrs)”. I kind of see the pronouns thing as similar. Putting trans issues aside, it can be quite handy when someone has a name that’s gender-neutral, or perhaps from a different language or something. I do understand why people are uncomfortable declaring their pronouns though, and definitely don’t think anyone should feel pressured to do it.