Aibu to send my nearly 10 yo to a foreign speaking school if I move to a different country

[pingpongpo]

They will be 10 in may 23 and I would prefer they went to a state school to immerse in the language and culture but feel bad and am now wondering if a private English speaking school would be better.

Some people I know are saying iabu to even think about doing this and others have been through it and are bilingual. Can't decide at all. I can get by in the language but I'm not fluent. Will probably become fluent and plan to.

I grew up in France and went to British and international schools.
I sometimes wish my parents had put in a French school so that I could be properly bilingual, not just fluent.
On the plus side, we had friends of all different nationalities and played with the local French children where we lived, sports clubs etc were also French.
Lots of the children I went to school with had been to local French schools then transferred back to the British school to do GCSES and A levels.

I would do it. A friend if mine did when her eldest was 9. There was a lot of support for language learning in class, there was a 121 for a few hours to help with understanding the lesson. IIRC there were also some extra lessons on a Wednesday afternoon, when the rest of the school was closed, to go over grammar and vocabulary etc. Said DC is now in her early 20s and studying at a Grande Ecole, so it didn’t harm her academic career and she’s now fluent in 3 languages.

Different country and different language, but when my DD was in primary there was a Turkish pupil who arrived mid year and she got 121 support in the same way. She was fluent and participating fully in lessons after only a few months. This was a state primary too, not a private school.

An international school will create a bubble and your DC won’t learn French to an acceptable level. Also, depending on what group the school is, the academics are often shite. There are state bilingual schools in the larger cities, plus there are colleges and lycées with international sections, where your DC can specialise in their home language in order to maintain it to a high level. I think most of these again are in larger cities but you can maybe look into it.

For a permanent move I wouldn't hesitate.

You can get them into a language bootcamp beforehand if they would like it but they need to pick up the language and culture - school is the quickest place to do that and settle in socially.

It will be foreign to the child op is talking about. As in something strange, unfamiliar, or characteristic of a country other than one’s own country. An English child trying to speak French is still speaking a foreign language even if she’s speaking it in France. A French child trying to speak English in England is speaking a foreign language to them.

@Malco that is a good point re moving over for gcse. Could do that as well so they can switch over in English for exams. That's a good idea.
@Melassa what are the bilingual schools like? Do they work as in they teach in both English and French? Would dc need to be at least a little bit proficient in both to attend at this age? They sound ideal.

I don’t think anyone is thinking this clearly. Of course it’s optimal to be at a local French state school, but not without potential major trauma to the child.

A phased transition would be much more sensible.
.

I would be a little more wary than a lot of the people here.

It will be great if it works. I'd love to have that ability now.

But I wonder if it's normally quite as easy as "in 6 months they'll be fluent.".
You see I've known a few children that have done similar locally at primary and they certainly weren't fluent in 6 months, or even in a year.
They were usually understanding quite well by a year, but speaking was nowhere near. I was speaking to a little (European Language) boy I know quite well. He's been in school for over year (year 1-2) and is very outgoing and sociable, not at all afraid to speak out and quick on the uptake. He's very good at making himself understood, but isn't speaking English in full sentences yet. For example I said to him that he was wearing "blue, my favourite colour" and he pointed to himself and said "me, green". So I asked him if green was his favourite colour and he nodded.

Now I'm sure that he's understanding and making himself understood verbally. However by year 6, they need to be doing a bit more than that to keep up at school. If they spend a year struggling to understand and not being able to do the work, then it could have quite bad effect on their confidence.

Given it’s a permanent move, I think it would be weird not to send them to the French school!

I am very surprised by all the pessimism from people.

I did university in a foreign language- never having lived there before that point, based only on learning that language at school.

There was a lad in my A level maths class who’d arrived in year 7 from Somalia without a word of English. And got 4 As at A level and went to study medicine…

@pingpongpo the bilingual schools I know of are in Paris, for a couple (eg. EIB Monceau) I think there is a waiting list and most are private. Not entirely sure of the quality, I do know the ones with a waiting list are sought after and a lot of international families opt for it when they want to avoid a fully international school. You’d be advised to ask around and visit. The two I’ve seen where I live (another European country) have been more money making ventures than any attempt at academic excellence, or even language acquisition.

However there are state schools that have international sections albeit at lycee level and not primary sorry it’s in French, couldn’t find it in English and there are British international sections to choose from and in quite a few cities.

Qualifications wise, if you’re staying in Europe it may be better to avoid A levels and opt for either French Bac or IB. They offer a broader education and if your DC wants to stay in France/elsewhere in the EU they give more options, for university and beyond. Not least because the home fees agreement for British EU residents runs out in 2028, so U.K. universities will be prohibitive by the time your DC finishes school. Another thing to think about!

Look, international sections at primary this might be an option? Where are you moving to?

My DC have only ever been to local schools in France.

Honestly, its not all that easy.

If going to state school you will a) have no choice of the school (catchment) and b) will not be able to visit before.

Even French private schools don't have open days - we've never been allowed to visit to help choose one.

When my Dc was in Cm1 (year 5) a British boy joined his class. After 2 weeks, once the start of year tests were finished, he was moved down a year cos he just wasn't good enough. They really don't hesitate to move children down a year.

There is a LOT of learning by rote. Learning a poem off by heart every 2 weeks, evaluations several times a week, lots of pressure to do well all the time.

Look on amazon and order the "cahier du jour cahier du soir" books for the year they will be joining and get the French and Maths ones. That will let you see what level they need.

Ok. I speak four languages, have trilingual children, have experience of moving a child between languages at age 10 and experience of the French system (at primary).

1. It's possible to move and the child to pick the language up. Be careful about the definition kf "fluent" though. There's a massive difference between being able to speak a language and being able to write it fluently. Especially French!

1. French children spend an absolutely massive amount of time on grammar and spelling, from about age 6. The idea that a child can just pick it up to a native level, is laughable. They can become good over time, but there will usually be a difference between them and native speakers. This is further an issue because they won't be living in a French-speaking household. They will be bilingual though, but their exposure to French on a daily basis will be less than French children and on top of missing all the foundations of the grammar, does count. So, it can be done, but be clear that "fluency" may not mean that they're error free even in a few years..and errors are not overlooked in the French system!

1. There's a lot of homework in the French system. The time for tutoring on top is not huge, plus your child will already be working all day at school then in the evening with homework. Unless they're very bookish, extra tutoring may be a hard ask, even if it's beneficial.

1. Generally speaking French schools are rather old-fashioned in their teaching methods. And not hugely flexible. There are exceptions. But it's good to be aware of this before going in.

1. If you don't speak French (you don't mention a DP?) how will you communicate with the school?

1. If you're living permanently in a country, going to local school gives the child an opportunity to actually participate in society, rather than live in sort of expat bubble. I know a lot of these kids and while there are advantages of it, they often don't feel they belong/fit in anywhere really. They're British but haven't lived there much anc they've grown up in France, but can't speak French or speak it badly and with a heavy British accent, so are not read as "from here" either. Same with many other countries/languages.

1. The move to a new school in the U.K. can be tricky. Moving from state to private, or the other way around can be tricky. Moving to a totally different educational system in a language you don't speak, in a country where you have no friends, is really a big deal. I would suggest that if you think you may move your child for secondary back to an English-speaking school that you don't tell them that it's even a possibility. It's not fair to put them in this huge new situation and let them know the effort may not be worth it. However, moving them if it doesn't work, definitely should be an option, but not one they know about. That would undermine their ability to focus on making the - very hard at first - change. Similarly if. You think moving back to English language for GCSEs, just don't put the kid through the change to start with. We actually learn a lot of vocab at school and unless s/he is learning bilingually, suddenly doing history or geography (for example) back in English, will mean they have some vocab gaps. Obviously you could help with it that way around, but it just adds to the work,

1. If you're moving into French school, get extra maths classes in the U.K. Even better if you can find a French maths tutor. They do maths differently, and are at higher level than U.K. maths. Your child being ahead in the U.K. curriculum doesn't necessarily mean they'll be average in France. Plus maths isn't only about numbers. You need to understand the instructions and for problems, you need to understand the scenario.

1. It may be helpful to expect that your child repeats a year at school. This may not happen, but if s/he's going to be learning what the French kids are learning, while not understanding it, then viewing the first year as a settling in period may be beneficial. I'm not saying repeating is necessary. But don't rule it out as a positive option. The more cemented a child is in the written grammar and spelling before high school, the easier high school will be.

10. It reads primarily like a list of negatives. But it's not. In order to really support your child through this transition, you need to have your eyes wide open. The more you know, the more you can help. Knowing, for example, that 10/10 is almost never awarded in France (and marks are out of 20 usually anyway) can help you frame your child's lower scores in comparison to at home, language difference aside. Your child will be exhausted for the first few months. Behaviours associated with that are likely to be more prominent - especially as conformity at French school is expected, in comparison to the U.K.. You can do a lot to help but if you have no idea if what to expect, it puts more pressure on the child as you're not able to shoulder as much of the burden. Literally anything you can do to take some of that burden off your child is going to be helpful.

11. You also need to learn French. And stick with it. Even when you seem not to be processing. Even though your accent will be bad/not great. Even though people will pretend not to understand you (sometimes not pretending either!!). Even though you'll probably never be fluent because of your age. You need to take the corrections ransoms give you as free lessons, rather than infuriating criticisms when you're trying really hard. Learning a language isn't easy, but you're asking your child to do it. It's unfair for you not to and to expect the child to translate things for you - which is what will end up happening. It will also enable you to parent better in the place you'll be living. This is more so because you're choosing to move (I take it you're not going there against your will!).

12. Audio books + the actual book in French to read while listening along are really helpful. There are subscriptions to books and magazines in French for kids that have this combo too. Sadly I can't remember the name any of them! Point is that reading and listening together is, very helpful. Maybe google or Amazon.fr, or fnac.fr can help. Also watching netflix in French with subtitles turned on in French can also be good. Cartoons are a good way to start.

13. There are always stories of children who moved countries and within 3 months excel in the new language. Some genuinely do. But sometimes the people who talk about the child being fluent in a matter of months aren't marking their written work and/or can't speak the guild's mother tongue, meaning they may have a superficial picture of what the child understands. Worth remembering too that in English we're actually quite relaxed about non-native speakers making errors in English, to the point we often don't hear the errors that much. Not every language is like that. It's a double-edged sword, because learners of English often don't get corrected so have less learning opportunities. Learners of French will find many learning opportunities ;) because errors really jar on native-speakers' ears. And being error free is valued.

I hope your move goes well and the transition smoothly and your child is one who picks up the language quickly, including grammar. It's a great opportunity.

What usually happens is that the student has intensive L2 lessons to enable them to participate as fully, and as quickly, as possible. Sometimes there'll be a kind of TA supporting the child in class (but that tends to be with only really young ones)
It takes a lot less time than you'd think really.
Plus the student's L1 is English. French kids have been learning English (pretty well) since they were 3. There won't be a person in the classroom, adult or child, that can't help out with at least the basics.
I was tasked with writing an English course for some French 17-18 year olds a few years back. The level they were studying at (in English) was about the level (in French) I was studying at in the final year of my degree.

Sorry I thought you spoke no French. What does "getting by" mean? B1, B2? The good news about French is that it's always possible to get more lessons!

And I just realised this is in AIBU. I'd say no, YANBU unless you expect that in 1 year your DC will be actually fluent and underestimate how difficult it can be. Just because something is challenging though doesn't make it bad.

Interesting thread. I live in France, with two kids in local schools. They gave been here since birth and are fully bilingual. I work in an international school (not private, but French state school with international language sections) which is very different to the usual English or French / English private schools.

the private bilingual schools can be a real mix here. A lot of the smaller bilingual ones are aimed at French families who want their children to learn English, plus English speaking parents who want a ‘private school’ experience. They often only offer primary and college. In big cities, increasing French privé are offering English sections, but that’s still quite new. The ‘proper’ international schools tend to be all English: it’s entirely possible that she’d leave them still not speaking French, as they really are English speaking bubbles (and tend to be favoured by families that move around a lot and need their children English level to stay up, for the next move).

there’s also the question of which final exam you want her to do? French state schools / privé offer the French baccalaureate. International sections offer the Bac plus extra language-based qualifications. ‘Proper’ private schools offer the IB.

where will you be located OP? And what year was your child born? That will determine which school year she starts in.

If he'd answered you with "green is my favourite colour" (full sentence)that would be even stranger.
"Blue is my favourite colour"
"Me green"
Is a perfectly good answer for a child that age and with a one year competency in the L2. He understood what you said, he answered in a way that effectively communicated his answer.
He's doing just fine, and I hope he doesn't have teachers from the old school way of thinking (all sentences have to be grammatically correct etc etc- that's learning a language, not acquiring it by being immersed in it which is what we'd be aiming for in this context)

I’ve been the teacher in a school where children can’t speak a word.
It’s incredibly stressful for them and more traumatic than parents care to admit.
One of the times, a girl sat there crying saying ‘what!? what!? what!?’ in her language, over and over. It was then that I made a promise to myself never to do that to my own children. How ostracised that little girl was was painful to see. I’ve seen it again recently.

The flip-side is, they are usually fluent by the next school year.

I would put my children in an International School until they had a grasp at the language. I would try to have them mix with children outside school who speak the language, in an environment where your child feels familiar and is able to use their own language if needs be. TV with subtitles, a tutor if you can afford it and start introducing repetitive phrases in the new language at home.

The one thing I agree mustn't be overlooked, but has nothing to do with languages is the age/school year thing- especially if you might be considering a move back to the UK at any stage (you mentioned GCSEs for example) You'll find that at GCSE age in most European countries options/new subjects, and/or further streaming kicks in, but not exams. If you're thinking of moving the child to an international school for GCSEs you could end up with:
Now- going into elementary for a year (?)
Going to middle school till 14
Then? High School to work towards Bac or International for GCSEs? That would be another massive change after just over 3 years and fluent or not, the child will by then definitely have friendships and a social life based around school.

Another thing to underline- as pps have said (and it's the same here in Italy) schools are "stricter", less practical, and expectations regarding study at home are high. And non-negotiable. Kids can fail tests even at a young age, and can fail whole years and have to repeat them. Parental cooperation is expected.

This is not necessarily a bad thing...

Can you tell us a bit more about your situation?

Is this a permanent move? Or temporary?
Are you being expatriated ie will your employer be paying school fees? And is €40k a year for a proper private school an option?
are you moving to a city or aiming for the countryside?
what’s your child like academically?
birth year is really important in France. My child is still only 14 but his birth year means he’s in lycée already and expected to make important subject / career choices this year 🙄

Get them a French tutor for lessons now. If you plan to stay in France, then go for local school. The first year will be difficult for sure and they will need a lot of support.
But the alternative is having a Brit living in France who doesn’t know the language and culture and feels left out that way.

I'm fluent in two languages and have worked in international schools in two countries. I wouldn't put a 10 year old in a french school if he has effectively no french but you know your child best and really need to discuss it with him. And take him for a visit so he can see the reality of the school.

It just isn't true that you can drop a child in and they will be fluent in no time. They might have enough language to follow routines, join in some things, but actual fluency takes years and the whole experience can be very isolating.

When do you plan to move? Can you get a tutor now and try to build both of your language skills?

What usually happens is that the student has intensive L2 lessons to enable them to participate as fully, and as quickly, as possible. Sometimes there'll be a kind of TA supporting the child in class (but that tends to be with only really young ones)
It takes a lot less time than you'd think really.
Plus the student's L1 is English. French kids have been learning English (pretty well) since they were 3. There won't be a person in the classroom, adult or child, that can't help out with at least the basics.

Im sorry but this is just not true for France.

My kids have in total done 13 years of school between them in France and have never met anyone capable of "helping them out with the basics ". The English taught at primary level is haphazard and basic and relies on the teacher's knowledge or volunteer parents.

Definitely need to adapt to the marking system. Its out of 20. Every evaluation gets graded then you get an average per subject and per student. Then you're ranked in the class.....

They tend to look for points to take off (mistakes) rather than points to add. In CM1, loads of kids were getting between 0 and 5/20 in dictation. All it takes is a few mispellings and points taken off cos the accent isn't long enough (!)

I agree with this. I have taught English to CM1 and CM2 children in France, there's no way any of them would have been able to interpret even basic things for an English child (nor would the French system expect them to). Most of the teachers wouldn't have been capable of it either.

I'm still very much in favour of putting the child in a standard French school (and will do so with my own dc as soon as I have the opportunity to move back), but do it with your eyes open. Some of the posts on here have given good pointers.

@Chocchops72 yes I pay fees here already and was planning on continuing with similar priced schools here so it won't be a problem re fees.

Also looking at Spain and Germany. But I speak some French hence heading in that direction. French schools sound hard ! I would really like my dc to participate in the local culture and society but if it is too isolating then maybe not. Dc is very confident otherwise I would not consider 'throwing them in the deep end'

We can move straight away as long as
working visas sorted. Just need to make these sorts of decisions to make sure we're doing the right thing.

My family moved to France when I was 5 and my older siblings were 8, 11 and 14. All of us picked up the language and passed out exams when the time come. The only difference between myself and my eldest sibling is she still speaks French with a British accent and still speaks in English with a British accent whereas myself and other siblings can change accents more naturally