To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

[MovingOutofZone2]

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine.

Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists.

I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness.

It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

This post is a pretty good example though.

The problem with ‘can’t we all just get along’ is that it leaves the victims of racism to shoulder the burden of tackling it entirely. White people who ‘see the person not the colour’ are really saying that they refuse to acknowledge the differences in how some people are treated because of their race and they refuse to do anything about it.

It places all the onus on people of colour to tackle racism.

I want my BME child to be able to go to school and see a teacher who looks like them, read a book written by someone like them, learn about scientists/ scholars/ historical figures that look like them

There has to be a reasonable level of expectation though.

Assuming you're talking about the UK... your BME child lives in a country with a majority white population. Even if all races were proportionally represented in every sector of society, the chance of your BME child having a teacher of the same race as them is going to be low.

Ditto with British scientists, authors, historical figures etc. Most will be white - which is to be expected.

Well said Energypanic

@unsureatthispoint

Britain is an increasingly diverse place with an array of wonderful cultures in it.

So you yourself are making a distinction between the 'array of wonderful cultures' and British culture then? How does it work?

Where’s the distinction? Why can’t ‘wonderful cultures’ include British culture?

You are really clutching at straws to take offence, so woke.

The teaching workforce in Scotland (where we are) is only 1.4% BME. There are plenty of white dole models, which is of course important, but BME children should also be able to see themselves reflected. The curriculum is white centric, I’m not saying to stop teaching white history just that other perspectives also exist. Looking at our curriculum you wouldn’t think a BME person had ever achieved anything and that simply isn’t true.

And this is happening because you are living in a majority white country. People need to accept this.

Yes, there are other perspectives, but the way these are being pushed is not conductive to a harmonious coexistence nowadays. It's all divisiveness. And even if we managed to do it in a way which was more balanced, the country (and Scotland in particular) would still be majority white, so you will need to come to terms with it

Why can’t ‘wonderful cultures’ include British culture?

So there is a British culture then

Where have I questioned British culture?

@LoisLane66 To see people without colour, to be effectively colour blind, is to deny them their identify, their culture and heritage.

Equality needs us to see each other as individuals, respecting and celebrating difference, valuing our shared humanity. IMV it is about seeing more in each other, not less.

This.

If people have concerns, surely it is better that they come out in discussion where they can be rejected or changed.

Gagging people never works, it creates resentment and perpetuates the problem. Open communication - within the normal rules of personal attacks etc - is better.

The weird Megan hate, the threads about how Hordes of Muslim Men are Coming Here and Threatening Women. It's really not good.

Well, it’s a public forum, for people to have public debates, discussions and conversations.

Mumsnet have carved out a section of public discussion (women) where it’s less public and more specific. They have further carved out an even more specific section of their forum (for non-white women).

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that specific groups have dedicated areas to meet, discuss, debate, converse their issues, needs and experiences.

I fully support the mumsnet having a board dedicated to women who are not white.

She didn’t say she wants ALL teachers to look like her child, just a teacher.'

Why? Isn't it that race shouldn't matter? I'm being hyperbolic on purpose here, but you can see my point regarding double standards

Even if all races were proportionally represented in every sector of society, the chance of your BME child having a teacher of the same race as them is going to be low.

I don't understand this part. Why would you expect mostly white teachers? Are you saying BME people don't train as teachers? Or just that schools don't hire them?

@GyozaGuiting I did not tell you I like MM. However I do not have time to be constantly listening to nonsense that someone told me this and someone told me that. About ANY celebrity or well known person or Royal for that matter. Grow up! You sound 13. My mate told me.... 😂

Facts are she is not leaving Harry. I don't understand that people want to constantly bang on about her. I understand that people are not her biggest fan and that's fine but FFS come on. You do you.

Its bullying its not about you assuming that I like MM.

@unsureatthispoint don't you be telling me what and who to ask.

Its called diversity.

I don’t think anyone can see any of your points on this thread, actually. There’s a lot of vague, cryptic “aren’t I clever? Gotcha” remarks from you but not a lot of actual clear content.

”Race shouldn’t matter” is the same as “I don’t see colour”, which basically translates to “I can’t cope with coexisting in a rich and culturally diverse society that involves differences and a variety of heritages, can’t everyone who isn’t exactly like me just fall into line?”

Sorry but it’s ludicrous to compare anxiety about a child being the only white child in a school (which simply doesn’t happen, by the way) with anxiety about a child being the only child of colour in a school.

The white child in a school with a large minority population is still part of a majority and highly privileged group. He will not be discriminated against for his race. The school isn’t going to try and force him to wear his hair in a culturally inappropriate or damaging way. The school are not going to fall prey to various damaging stereotypes/tropes about people of his race - including treating black kids as older (and therefore more culpable for mistakes or less deserving of nurture), or viewing any sort of wilfulness by black people as them being ‘another angry black person’.

All of those are things that a parent of a black child have to consider when they send them to school that parents of a white child do not.

I once opened a post about hair and skipped to the end to post only to find the thread had turned and a poster was getting a blocking for posting because they were on the Black mumsnetter section. I too had opened it as it was trending and didn't realise what page it was on. I think its racist that there even is a page to keep white folks out just as their is a Scottish and Irish page where yes I have seen the but you don't live here comments.I see some people are saying you should see the person not their colour yet on a program the other day (sorry a real housewives one) a black person was insulted at someone saying this and felt it was racist and insulting their heritage. With regards M&H they both annoy me because they want out of RF but keep bleating for the ££. I live in a small rural town in Scotland Black people are few and far between so maybe I do get things wrong but I'm sad this makes me a racist. The recent RF incident I haven't paid attention to however it's the sort of thing my elderly mum would ask because the woman was wearing a cultural outfit and being in her 80s and a bit doddery would have been trying to ask albeit awkwardly about her heritage. I'm guessing it was wrong to ask at all but then that could have been an enlightening and fascinating chance to pass knowledge on surely? My mum would have been delighted to have a conversation to say to others that she met so and so and she was wearing a fabulous outfit which had a tradition meaning if and where it came from. Is that truly racist? If so I'm sorry.

There’s a lot of vague, cryptic “aren’t I clever? Gotcha” remarks from you but not a lot of actual clear content.

Apologies if I fail to give you content that you like and approve of

There's a few problems/situations getting mashed together, and it undermines the very real issues we have with racism in this country.

It's very possible people didn't initially see MM as a woman of colour. Only when the press started talking about it, and her mother was shown, would your average person to whom it's not relevant have noticed. I'm one of those people. The first I knew about her being a woman of colour was when the accusations of racism started, and I couldn't initially understand why. Saying, 'Of course you did, it's obvious' just alienates people who didn't and undermines the rest of what's said.

Throwing in the use of 'American' as an insult just muddies the water. It dilutes the seriousness of racism, and makes the whole things sound trivial, when it isn't.

The Palace business was awful, and she was spectacularly insensitive in her questioning. My 83 year old mother might be equally insensitive, but luckily isn't given the opportunity. I can accept that the offence was unintentional, but the palace failed in ensuring she was managed out.

I look forward to the day everyone can take pride in their heritage, talk about it and know that they are not disadvantaged by it.
That day hasn't come and we need to acknowledge that.
I believe it's not unlike asking someone where their name originates- usually intended as harmless but not experienced as harmless.

My heart breaks for the woman being othered in a situation where she should have been feeling such pride and recognition for her work.

I don't understand this part. Why would you expect mostly white teachers? Are you saying BME people don't train as teachers? Or just that schools don't hire them?

Because there are vastly more white people in the UK than any other race.

Even if all races were proportionally represented in teaching, the chance of a black child having a black teacher or an Asian child having an Asian teacher is always going to be low and 'not the norm'.

@MovingOutofZone2 I have really noticed it too recently OP. I can’t believe the comments that don’t get deleted. The racist comments are also subtle and often micro aggressions which makes it worse as people can say “I can’t see any racist comments” which is bordering on gaslighting.
I open threads on race now and brace myself. Closet racists who probably have ‘lots of black friends/acquaintances’ in real life but use an anonymous forum to show who they really are.
💐OP. It’s shit.

See this is exactly what I mean, I any one says something you disagree with you can claim it racism or mico aggression and there for it is no longer open to debate and that is the end of discussion in your eyes.

This destroys the real fight against rasism and is used as a cheap I win card so many people no longer want to loose and will fight tooth and nail to keep.

It cheapens the cause, gets people's backs up and gardens opinions. People start to get to a point where they stop caring and you then become the problem.

Actually this isn’t true.

Look at the litany of far right lunatics like Katie Hopkins who were given disturbing levels of attention when we all ‘engaged’ with them and challenged their views etc.

But once they were deplatformed by the likes of Twitter, they effectively disappeared.

Some views - including racism - don’t deserve the legitimisation that comes with debate. It is both ethically acceptable and practically more effective to simply shut down racists than the ‘engage and challenge’.