Page 32 | To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

MovingOutofZone2 · 2022-12-03T04:16:33+00:00

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine. Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists. I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, *I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness*. It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

Squeezita · 05/12/2022 09:15

Lilavanblue · 05/12/2022 08:38

Agree, I find it a bit of a strange „heads up“. „Careful, this person has „wrong“ opinions“?
I am an EU citizen and was against Brexit, but I don’t mind hearing from people who voted for it.

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I think the key words are ‘wind up merchant’ in that post, not Brexit.

LondonWolf · 05/12/2022 09:43

TruckerBarbie · 05/12/2022 00:17

I don't really want to go down the path of defending Hussey as in all honesty I don't really know a great deal about her as an individual, and for all I know she could be a xenophobic old cow (although I doubt it).

It's more that the situation is evocative of a wider trend that I notice in our society with ever increasing frequency.

I perhaps have an unconventional view but for me language is just the medium by which individuals express their sentiments. I'm more interested in a person's genuine intentions than the manner in which they express them, which can sometimes be clumsy.

I notice this a lot having moved from the professional sector to the construction sector. I spent a decade working in a number of office jobs, including the legal sector and various types of consultancies. What I've encountered countless times is a certain type of smugly superior man who knows exactly what he can and can't say.

It's easy to pick up on the low key dismissiveness and patronising nature many of these individuals have, but they'll rarely do anything that could get them pulled in front of HR as they know the game too well.

By stark contrast, I work in an almost entirely male dominated environment nowadays where political correctness is a shadow of what it is in most professional environments, and most of the people I work with day to day are working class builders.

Unlike the sales/marketing environment there's not really any bullshit or requirement to try and schmooze clients like in say an account management job. It's all about getting building materials produced and to a certain place by a certain time. Past basic civility there isn't really a whole lot of requirement to win people over as my job doesn't involve bidding/sales etc. I encounter a fair bit of gruffness on a daily basis and it bothers me not one bit as I found it quite exhausting in previous jobs keeping up the charade if. I'm honest.

I regularly get called 'love', which would have some women doing backflips but I just can't get worked up about it tbh. Give me a straight talking, coarse, but well meaning WC bloke over some slimy, conceited (but politically correct) Very Important Businessman any day of the week.

I just hate the type of people who 'play the game' but are ultimately cunts underneath it all, and I feel like a lot of the people heavily invested in cancel culture are like this. Just desperate to find an opportunity to hang somebody for saying the wrong thing.

So I guess for me the relevance to this incident isn't really whether or not Hussey really meant it offensively, but the fact that for many people this won't matter one bit and it's just another opportunity to be self righteous. The truth is that many won't really give a shit about Ngosi so much as they'll be enjoying the relentless demolition of yet another 'bigot'.

No doubt a somewhat cynical view on my part but nonetheless one I'm pretty certain of.

This is really well said. Performative "Right Think" and "Kindness" is meaningless and the rigidity around the expectations of them make them near on impossible to meet. Perfect, accurate language and communication style or it's straight for the jugular - ie the big "R" word. I find it all rather disgusting and Al
Impatient with it, which I am sure comes across in my posting style. I appreciate those who stick around and make the effort to keep explaining.

Original poster

MovingOutofZone2 · 05/12/2022 11:06

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 05/12/2022 00:00

@MovingOutofZone2
There is no devious or ulterior motive from me in not quoting :)
Thinking so would be over-reading! I did try quoting but the phone app was jumping this afternoon (making it difficult to read long threads or to quote). I reported it to site-stuff.

Your quoted examples were useful but I didn't see them as a 'slam-dunk' argument. They weren't the easiest to find on the thread... because of all the other kinds of comment. Mumsnet posters don't agree on anything -there will always be other views - the wrong and the provocative.

Racism is pulled-up on many threads (all over mumsnet ) and it is clear that Lady H's views are now not shared by most on here or outside. Even those looking to excuse/explain the rudeness are not all saying that she was right.

Did you not intend this thread to be a useful exploration of the subject? I thought you started it (with hard hat on) as that sort of challenge rather than a generalised moan.

Don't assume that all the talking that needs to be done has been done. I find the Daily Fail and the like lead discussions in the outside world. They don't lead here but many posters do not have lived experience of racism /its effects and don't get to hear anyone speak on this either. Wanting not to be racist isn't the same as not being racist.

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As my ‘argument’ was ‘People are supporting her behaviour on this very thread. There are multiple threads on MN right now, with people arguing her case’, yes providing screenshots of people doing that very thing is a ‘slam dunk’ argument.

I repeat If you’re still refusing to acknowledge that there are multiple people supporting this nonsense when you are presented with screenshots, then there’s no point pretending you’re attempting to get a ‘clearer grip’ on anything.

The rest of that comment is utter waffle. One of the things I will not do on this thread is engage in back and forths with disingenuous sealioning posters. 👍🏽

OP posts:

Original poster

MovingOutofZone2 · 05/12/2022 11:11

LondonWolf · 05/12/2022 09:43

This is really well said. Performative "Right Think" and "Kindness" is meaningless and the rigidity around the expectations of them make them near on impossible to meet. Perfect, accurate language and communication style or it's straight for the jugular - ie the big "R" word. I find it all rather disgusting and Al
Impatient with it, which I am sure comes across in my posting style. I appreciate those who stick around and make the effort to keep explaining.

Show quote history

And I find racism and its apologists disgusting and am impatient with it and them.

I am VERY appreciative of the many posters who have stuck around and made the effort to keep explaining.

OP posts:

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:36

No, you're just charging along, dismissing anyone who might hold a more nuanced opinion as racist. As a poster said previously, I haven't seen anyone on MN supporting what Lady Hussey said. No one. Without exception posters have said she was wrong. But some posters have suggested that maybe she wasn't intending to be racist, but was ill-judged.
But, no, that's not good enough, because, of course, THOSE posters are now racist. And so it goes on.
I wonder if you've ever read Animal Farm? Because, from the way you post - 'agree with me or you're a racist', sounds Orwellian to me.

Mirabai · 05/12/2022 11:45

What makes you think your opinion is “more nuanced”? (Other than arrogance I mean).

stuntbubbles · 05/12/2022 11:53

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:36

No, you're just charging along, dismissing anyone who might hold a more nuanced opinion as racist. As a poster said previously, I haven't seen anyone on MN supporting what Lady Hussey said. No one. Without exception posters have said she was wrong. But some posters have suggested that maybe she wasn't intending to be racist, but was ill-judged.
But, no, that's not good enough, because, of course, THOSE posters are now racist. And so it goes on.
I wonder if you've ever read Animal Farm? Because, from the way you post - 'agree with me or you're a racist', sounds Orwellian to me.

Perhaps we’ve been reading different threads – tbf there’s been multiple on the topic – because I’ve seen plenty saying that not only is it fine, but what did Fulani expect, going to the Palace “dressed like that” (in a… cardigan?) and wearing her hair in a non-British style? (No poster has ever clarified for me what a British style is!)

Post upon post saying asking is fine, pushing the subject is fine, you can’t go around in leopard print with a foreign name and expect not to be quizzed on it, even the mind-bending logic that since Lady SH is confident she’s not racist, her words therefore can’t be racist, therefore it’s fine.

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:53

I'm saying that literally anyone on the thread who isn't on board with the OP is denounced as racist. Not just me. Anyone who says 'maybe, but maybe not'. Hence the Animal Farm reference.
and yes, I might not always be right. But at least I don't believe that everybody who disagrees with me is wrong. And I know which of those standpoints is arrogance.

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:56

I haven't looked at the other threads, as I have a life. But I am not denying that there are posts saying this, I am just pointing out that the common theme of the response is 'you don't agree with me? You're racist'.

stuntbubbles · 05/12/2022 11:58

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:56

I haven't looked at the other threads, as I have a life. But I am not denying that there are posts saying this, I am just pointing out that the common theme of the response is 'you don't agree with me? You're racist'.

Hmmm, if you haven’t read the threads on the topic perhaps don’t lay claim to I haven't seen anyone on MN supporting what Lady Hussey said. No one. Without exception posters have said she was wrong.? Because it’s simply untrue.

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 12:00

Ouch. What a great gotcha for you. Well done.
Can I end the minutes to add 'on the thread I read'
Sorry

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 05/12/2022 12:03

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:36

No, you're just charging along, dismissing anyone who might hold a more nuanced opinion as racist. As a poster said previously, I haven't seen anyone on MN supporting what Lady Hussey said. No one. Without exception posters have said she was wrong. But some posters have suggested that maybe she wasn't intending to be racist, but was ill-judged.
But, no, that's not good enough, because, of course, THOSE posters are now racist. And so it goes on.
I wonder if you've ever read Animal Farm? Because, from the way you post - 'agree with me or you're a racist', sounds Orwellian to me.

This!

PurpleButterflyWings · 05/12/2022 12:21

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:36

No, you're just charging along, dismissing anyone who might hold a more nuanced opinion as racist. As a poster said previously, I haven't seen anyone on MN supporting what Lady Hussey said. No one. Without exception posters have said she was wrong. But some posters have suggested that maybe she wasn't intending to be racist, but was ill-judged.
But, no, that's not good enough, because, of course, THOSE posters are now racist. And so it goes on.
I wonder if you've ever read Animal Farm? Because, from the way you post - 'agree with me or you're a racist', sounds Orwellian to me.

100% this. ^ I have only posted once on this thread, as I pretty much said all I wanted to say in that post, and I CBA to argue with the type of people you describe. Waste of time. Anything you say that doesn't 100% agree with them, and back up their far left and 'woke' narrative, is deemed as racist and bigoted, and the poster in question deemed as racist too.

As I have said on threads before, the accusations of bigot/racist/gammon, being aimed at posters on here, PURELY for having a different view to the 'woke,' are just becoming white noise now. I literally take no notice. Funnily enough, I don't know anyone like this in real life. It's like the far-left echo chamber TWITTER ... in real life NO-ONE has these views.

DeeCeeCherry · 05/12/2022 12:23

White Liberals wanting to decide what Ngozi's response and reaction should have been.

Low intelligence blatant racists who think Ngozi should be subservient

Both the same ignoramus groups (albeit the Liberals think they're a cut above your average dumb racist but they're really not) stuck in the past and bewildered that their assumed privilege has been dented.

Their voices continue to grow ever quieter in real life, the real world of multi-cultural England where increasingly nobody wants to hear what they have to say, and they dont make anything much happen in a country thats moving on anyway.

Good.

Mirabai · 05/12/2022 12:41

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:53

I'm saying that literally anyone on the thread who isn't on board with the OP is denounced as racist. Not just me. Anyone who says 'maybe, but maybe not'. Hence the Animal Farm reference.
and yes, I might not always be right. But at least I don't believe that everybody who disagrees with me is wrong. And I know which of those standpoints is arrogance.

As your opinions, and the ones you approve of, are so much more “nuanced” than everyone else’s - it must be galling that they’re not treated with the reverence you think they deserve.

Fwiw I don’t think LH was intending to be racist - she’s just ignorant. And rude. And totally inappropriate for the role. Not to say completely cut off from the population she, or the monarchy, purports to represent.

Original poster

MovingOutofZone2 · 05/12/2022 12:57

Sausagenbacon · 05/12/2022 11:36

No, you're just charging along, dismissing anyone who might hold a more nuanced opinion as racist. As a poster said previously, I haven't seen anyone on MN supporting what Lady Hussey said. No one. Without exception posters have said she was wrong. But some posters have suggested that maybe she wasn't intending to be racist, but was ill-judged.
But, no, that's not good enough, because, of course, THOSE posters are now racist. And so it goes on.
I wonder if you've ever read Animal Farm? Because, from the way you post - 'agree with me or you're a racist', sounds Orwellian to me.

I haven't seen anyone on MN supporting what Lady Hussey said. No one. Without exception posters have said she was wrong.

These are all from one thread (that’s still up). There are dozens more on said thread, of the opinion that Ngozi was wrong, Lady Susan in the right and/or it was all (somehow) a conspiracy. And more on the many many threads on the topic. Yet, some of you refuse to admit they exist. Curious.

Have you read 1984? Because your staunch denial of reality seems very Orwellian to me.

To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

OP posts:

unsureatthispoint · 05/12/2022 13:04

If your knowledge of history doesn't extend to understanding how global power, wealth, language dynamics, medical fallacies and race relations has roots in the transatlantic slave trade and the beneficiaries thereof, that's for you to study.

What does this mean?

A great number advancements in almost every field (technological, medical, engineering) is due to the British and other European nations. The demonisation needs to stop as it's becoming too much, insulting and people are understandably switching off

Slavery has unfortunately always existed, even today. Sometimes overtly, sometimes in disguise. The constant bashing of our country does not come from a good place and is unacceptable

unsureatthispoint · 05/12/2022 13:05

'agree with me or you're a racist', sounds Orwellian to me

Threats all along. Shocking

unsureatthispoint · 05/12/2022 13:06

There are dozens more on said thread, of the opinion that Ngozi was wrong, Lady Susan in the right and/or it was all (somehow) a conspiracy. And more on the many many threads on the topic. Yet, some of you refuse to admit they exist. Curious.

Shock horror! People have different opinions!!!

Original poster

MovingOutofZone2 · 05/12/2022 13:10

It’s always interesting that the posters who complain about everyone who disagrees with them lacking nuance, dismissing opposing views and trying to shut down conversation…are inevitably completely lacking in nuance, dismissive of opposing views and desperate to shut down conversation. The irony is fascinating. How deep seated must one’s sense of entitlement be to be that lacking in self awareness.

If you’ve come on this thread to tell me I’m wrong (you haven’t seen racism on here and even if you have, it’s not the majority, and race card, PC gone mad, insert inanity), but are incapable of accepting that I (and lots of other posters) think you’re wrong, kindly explain why your version of reality is ‘correct’.

You are incensed at our audacity in not agreeing with you. You are decrying the ‘lack of nuance’ of people who have written articulate, layered and incisive posts while you’ve just essentially ranted. You’re incapable of engaging, incapable of learning, incapable of growing. This is the problem. You are the problem.

OP posts:

Igotjelly · 05/12/2022 13:12

MovingOutofZone2 · 05/12/2022 13:10

It’s always interesting that the posters who complain about everyone who disagrees with them lacking nuance, dismissing opposing views and trying to shut down conversation…are inevitably completely lacking in nuance, dismissive of opposing views and desperate to shut down conversation. The irony is fascinating. How deep seated must one’s sense of entitlement be to be that lacking in self awareness.

If you’ve come on this thread to tell me I’m wrong (you haven’t seen racism on here and even if you have, it’s not the majority, and race card, PC gone mad, insert inanity), but are incapable of accepting that I (and lots of other posters) think you’re wrong, kindly explain why your version of reality is ‘correct’.

You are incensed at our audacity in not agreeing with you. You are decrying the ‘lack of nuance’ of people who have written articulate, layered and incisive posts while you’ve just essentially ranted. You’re incapable of engaging, incapable of learning, incapable of growing. This is the problem. You are the problem.

Very eloquently put.

unsureatthispoint · 05/12/2022 13:20

Nothing is done to re-educate or tackle why they think the way they do.

Why does this 're-education' business keep on being bandied about? Many people have made up their minds and will not change their opinion, no matter how much re-educating indoctrination you attempt to do. It's worrying and insulting, do you think others cannot think for themselves?

Igotjelly · 05/12/2022 13:25

unsureatthispoint · 05/12/2022 13:20

Nothing is done to re-educate or tackle why they think the way they do.

Why does this 're-education' business keep on being bandied about? Many people have made up their minds and will not change their opinion, no matter how much re-educating indoctrination you attempt to do. It's worrying and insulting, do you think others cannot think for themselves?

It's not indoctrination to expect people to adapt their thinking to try and understand the World and society from another person's perspective.

Mirabai · 05/12/2022 13:26

unsureatthispoint · 05/12/2022 13:20

Nothing is done to re-educate or tackle why they think the way they do.

Why does this 're-education' business keep on being bandied about? Many people have made up their minds and will not change their opinion, no matter how much re-educating indoctrination you attempt to do. It's worrying and insulting, do you think others cannot think for themselves?

I have a brighter view of human nature - that narrowness, ignorance, prejudice and bigotry can be enlightened over time.

HotChoxs · 05/12/2022 13:29

MovingOutofZone2 · 05/12/2022 13:10

It’s always interesting that the posters who complain about everyone who disagrees with them lacking nuance, dismissing opposing views and trying to shut down conversation…are inevitably completely lacking in nuance, dismissive of opposing views and desperate to shut down conversation. The irony is fascinating. How deep seated must one’s sense of entitlement be to be that lacking in self awareness.

If you’ve come on this thread to tell me I’m wrong (you haven’t seen racism on here and even if you have, it’s not the majority, and race card, PC gone mad, insert inanity), but are incapable of accepting that I (and lots of other posters) think you’re wrong, kindly explain why your version of reality is ‘correct’.

You are incensed at our audacity in not agreeing with you. You are decrying the ‘lack of nuance’ of people who have written articulate, layered and incisive posts while you’ve just essentially ranted. You’re incapable of engaging, incapable of learning, incapable of growing. This is the problem. You are the problem.

Ok, let me try to explain.
When I grew up in the 70s and 80s I experienced overt racism, verbal and physical. At school, in the streets, which left a lot of trauma.
I went on marches and protests in the 90s, the one outside the BNP bookstore was particularly troublesome and turned into a dangerous riot.
From about 2000 onwards I hardly ever experienced any overt racism. There was definitely a level of more subtle racism but I think overall I just felt that naturally as the country became more mixed up it would lessen and resolve itself, I still believe that and in my view is that it continues along this trend.
The problem I have now is that I don't think that the level of anti-racism now is doing much else but continually creating more and more division.
I'm sure there's racism on MN, I'm sure there's a lot of subtle racism, but it's pointless and tiresome to address every single issue that could potentially be racism. People are far too quick to jump into it.
From where I'm standing it's quite weird to watch a load of white people start jumping up and down about it 20 years after it was a major issue. I think in the grand scheme of things certainly in this Country it really isn't these days.