To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

[MovingOutofZone2]

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine.

Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists.

I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness.

It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

cakeorwine
Clavinova has gone to the trouble of digging up an article and posting a specific piece from it

It's not just an article - it's a fascinating, in-depth interview of some length - perhaps you should read it yourself. The particular example I gave stood out because it was a 'transcript' of sorts - I did point out that there were numerous examples of obvious racism as well;

museum-collection.hackney.gov.uk/object-2018-54

I've read it.

Just interesting that you happened to post on a particular section on this thread.

Take that as you will.

Just interesting that you happened to post on a particular section on this thread

At the time of day I happened to be free you mean? Funny coincidence.

What made you post that specific section of the article?

“I will disagree with people muddying the waters of what is considered to be more important than following safeguarding policies.”

I wonder if I’ve missed where anyone has said that something is more important than safeguarding? In my reply to you I attempted to explain why she may have answered the questions that way. Did you somehow take that as me saying that she shouldn’t have been questioned at all? Because that’s absolutely not what I was saying.

She knows that’s not what you’re saying she’s just trying to derail the thread. I’ve stopped responding.

cakeorwine
What made you post that specific section of the article?

I have already explained that - the transcript aspect stood out - and here in my original post;

(Most people would never dream of probing a stranger again and again)

I agree - I do wonder though, if an incident that Ngozi Fulani recounted to Hackney Museum in 2017 partially explains why the exchange between Ngozi and Lady Hussey was so drawn out;

Ngozi Fulani
I worked in a school and when I’d been there for three months and still after that time admin who didn’t know me or hadn’t seen me would approach me at the entrance of the building. “Can I help you?” I would of course say “No.” “Are you looking for somebody?” “No, thank you.” “Are you a parent?” “Well yes I am actually but not to children in this school.” “Well then I’m afraid you can’t come past here unless you’re a member of staff. Oh, are you kitchen staff?” “No.” “Are you domestic?” “No.” And then we’ll have this little gap, and then I’ll say, “I’m a teacher. It wouldn’t seem to occur to you that it’s possible for me to be part of the teaching staff.”

Was the admin staff member being racist asking someone they didn't know/ recognise, "Can I help you?" Why didn't Ngozi just reply, "I'm a teacher" or flash her name badge, or even introduce herself and strike up a friendly conversation? Why draw out the exchange with somewhat secretive, cryptic replies?
(NB - There are numerous examples of obvious racism in the interview as well.)

Anyway - time to watch some tv instead - going round in circles here...

I’m replying to multiple posters about the same thing. I’m not derailing the thread anymore than they (and you) are. I’m just replying!

I read all the sentence thanks! No need to reference White. You clearly didn't. Read it!

Having now read the transcript of the conversation I'm a bit conflicted tbh.

Ultimately, I think most younger people would know to avoid those types of questions with a bargepole, but I'm also unconvinced that there was any ill intent behind the questions.

Susan Hussey is old enough to have been alive before many people (including Ngosi's parents) emigrated to the UK which is what perhaps piqued her interest in a way that might not have occurred to those of us who grew up alongside the children of said immigrants.

Ngosi ultimately doesn't owe her any explanation but I think the conversation would have been much more of a non event had she just said "my parents came here in the 50s". Of course, she's not obliged to say that but I think the fact it wasn't clear was what caused Hussey to keep pressing, admittedly foolishly so.

Ultimately, it's a minefield asking these types of questions and I think most people would recognise that, especially the younger generation. But nonetheless I still feel for Hussey losing her job over it and especially at an age where this will likely shadow her to her death. With the previous conduct of the Royal Family around racial matters this was the perfect opportunity for them to make an example of somebody and play the 'not racist' card.

I wrote it, but sure. 🤣🤣🤣

Yeah, you’re clearly going to make some stellar contributions here. We’re all very excited.

😂

Me too! Very. 👋👋👍🏻👍🏻

But nonetheless I still feel for Hussey losing her job over it and especially at an age where this will likely shadow her to her death.

I struggle to feel any sympathy for her - she has lived her life in a bubble of privilege (and I mean 'privilege' in the old-fashioned sense as well as, undeniably, the modern meaning) and she will remain insulated by the same bubble for the rest of her life.

Losing this honorary role isn't going to mean she'll be struggling to get by on the state pension, choosing between heating her home and eating, or waiting five years for a hip replacement like many 80+ year olds in the UK.

Most working class people have suffered far worse things in their lives than SH ever will, and through no fault of their own; whereas she is being justly criticised for racist behaviour.

I'm still not sure I can get on the hate wagon with the aplomb many seem to.

No, she likely won't struggle to heat her house but I'm not sure I'd prefer to be hated by the nation and painted as a nasty racist either for unwittingly committing a social faux pas.

It was an ill advised question but I still think it's very unlikely that it was a deliberate attempt to make Ngosi feel uncomfortable or imply she isn't truly British. I think it almost certainly came from genuine curiosity unhindered by the nuance/insight the younger generation have, which somebody in her position should admittedly also be aware of.

It was inappropriate but I can't revel in the destroying of an elderly person's life for one transgression which she seems very apologetic of. It's right that it be addressed formally but a public pile on with Ngosi claiming it 'felt like violence' just seems a bit much to me - also not a particularly empathetic thing for somebody who runs a domestic violence charity to say, but if course ignored as she's 'the victim'.

Honestly - I wouldn't worry too much this woman is not going to suffer - she is protected by the powers that be despite what the media try to make it look like.
As was pointed out in another thread - Ngozi has suffered far more spite and backlash across the media than LH ever will.

No I didn’t. As I said, my personal experience.

Hate is a strong word. I can't speak for others, but I don't hate Susan Hussey. I do agree there is a pile-on/bandwagon element to what has happened, but the corollary of this is that people who have jumped on the bandwagon will soon be jumping off it to join the next one.

Where I differ is in the idea that SH's life will be destroyed by this - it won't. As I've said, she is very well-insulated. Without a doubt, while publicly issuing statements condemning her behaviour, the high-ups in 'The Firm' will be privately commiserating with SH and supporting her.

“unwittingly committing a social faux-pas” is a generous interpretation, very much in contrast to the pulling apart NF has received.

@MovingOutofZone2
There is no devious or ulterior motive from me in not quoting :)
Thinking so would be over-reading! I did try quoting but the phone app was jumping this afternoon (making it difficult to read long threads or to quote). I reported it to site-stuff.

Your quoted examples were useful but I didn't see them as a 'slam-dunk' argument. They weren't the easiest to find on the thread... because of all the other kinds of comment. Mumsnet posters don't agree on anything -there will always be other views - the wrong and the provocative.

Racism is pulled-up on many threads (all over mumsnet ) and it is clear that Lady H's views are now not shared by most on here or outside. Even those looking to excuse/explain the rudeness are not all saying that she was right.

Did you not intend this thread to be a useful exploration of the subject? I thought you started it (with hard hat on) as that sort of challenge rather than a generalised moan.

Don't assume that all the talking that needs to be done has been done. I find the Daily Fail and the like lead discussions in the outside world. They don't lead here but many posters do not have lived experience of racism /its effects and don't get to hear anyone speak on this either. Wanting not to be racist isn't the same as not being racist.

I don't really want to go down the path of defending Hussey as in all honesty I don't really know a great deal about her as an individual, and for all I know she could be a xenophobic old cow (although I doubt it).

It's more that the situation is evocative of a wider trend that I notice in our society with ever increasing frequency.

I perhaps have an unconventional view but for me language is just the medium by which individuals express their sentiments. I'm more interested in a person's genuine intentions than the manner in which they express them, which can sometimes be clumsy.

I notice this a lot having moved from the professional sector to the construction sector. I spent a decade working in a number of office jobs, including the legal sector and various types of consultancies. What I've encountered countless times is a certain type of smugly superior man who knows exactly what he can and can't say.

It's easy to pick up on the low key dismissiveness and patronising nature many of these individuals have, but they'll rarely do anything that could get them pulled in front of HR as they know the game too well.

By stark contrast, I work in an almost entirely male dominated environment nowadays where political correctness is a shadow of what it is in most professional environments, and most of the people I work with day to day are working class builders.

Unlike the sales/marketing environment there's not really any bullshit or requirement to try and schmooze clients like in say an account management job. It's all about getting building materials produced and to a certain place by a certain time. Past basic civility there isn't really a whole lot of requirement to win people over as my job doesn't involve bidding/sales etc. I encounter a fair bit of gruffness on a daily basis and it bothers me not one bit as I found it quite exhausting in previous jobs keeping up the charade if. I'm honest.

I regularly get called 'love', which would have some women doing backflips but I just can't get worked up about it tbh. Give me a straight talking, coarse, but well meaning WC bloke over some slimy, conceited (but politically correct) Very Important Businessman any day of the week.

I just hate the type of people who 'play the game' but are ultimately cunts underneath it all, and I feel like a lot of the people heavily invested in cancel culture are like this. Just desperate to find an opportunity to hang somebody for saying the wrong thing.

So I guess for me the relevance to this incident isn't really whether or not Hussey really meant it offensively, but the fact that for many people this won't matter one bit and it's just another opportunity to be self righteous. The truth is that many won't really give a shit about Ngosi so much as they'll be enjoying the relentless demolition of yet another 'bigot'.

No doubt a somewhat cynical view on my part but nonetheless one I'm pretty certain of.

Didn't mean to write such a wall of text.

Have read the replies posted since my original post and they raise some good points, but sadly I need to be up at 5am and have let time get ahead of me, so I'll have to pick up tomorrow. Didn't want to post and run.

@TruckerBarbie
“So I guess for me the relevance to this incident isn't really whether or not Hussey really meant it offensively, but the fact that for many people this won't matter one bit and it's just another opportunity to be self righteous.”

I guess you missed my post earlier today about where questions like Hussey’s led for my son and the damage it did.

I guess it also didn’t matter one bit that I caught him trying to scratch his skin off and tell me he wanted to be dead because of the racism he faced which invariably started with “where are you from? No, you’re not from here.”

No doubt you’ll say “oh I’m not talking about that!” but you are, because that where it starts.

Lucky lucky lucky you that you get to have a cynical view of this rather than dealing with the reality of where it leads.

Agree, I find it a bit of a strange „heads up“. „Careful, this person has „wrong“ opinions“?
I am an EU citizen and was against Brexit, but I don’t mind hearing from people who voted for it.