To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

[MovingOutofZone2]

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine.

Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists.

I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness.

It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

@Katypp ”How am I supposed to be interested in someone's culture if I can't ask them about it?”

Katy, you’re either interested in different cultures or you’re not. If you are interested in a different culture, and you’re unable to ask a member of that culture about it, you can learn about it from books and websites. I’m sure you’re aware that Google and librarians exist.

Of course the assumption that you “can’t” ask people is a red herring (and a minimisation in relation to the current topic in the news. She wasn’t being asked about her culture, was she?). If you have a relationship with someone, you’ll find out all sorts of interesting things. What you shouldn’t do, is badger strangers with questions that make them feel awkward and reveal that you see them as “other”. If you are unfamiliar with the concept of “othering”, that’s something you can learn about online.

Hope that helps.

You don’t press them as to where they’re really from. You accept the information that the person gives and respect that if they wished to share additional information on the topic, they would have done so.

Exactly. It’s just common manners not to probe someone when they’ve given you an answer to a question. Most people would never dream of probing a stranger again and again and it’s out and out racism to think you are allowed to do it to certain races but would never dream of doing it to a white person.

@Katypp

I asked a straight question a while ago now and have had lots of responses around my intelligence and outrage that I should need to ask, but no-one has been courteous enough to attempt to answer it. For clarity, I will ask again. How am I supposed to be interested in someone's culture if I can't ask them about it

You didn’t ask a straight question. First, you lectured on the dictionary definition of racism, then stated that there was “nothing racist” in Lady Hussey’s comments. Then you said that the “problem” is that people (presumably of colour) attach their “own meaning on to people’s words” and then “opinion becomes fact”; and that the idea that “someone believes something to be true means it is” is “nonsense”.

I would suggest that if you want to ask a “straight” question about an issue and be taken seriously, try not to rubbish the issue before you even start.

@MovingOutofZone2

I haven't complained that no one has engaged with me. I observed that I'd made a point that no one had responded to but it wasn't a complaint, just an observation.

I said that lady SH's action were ill advised, in response to the point that she was repeatedly asking about heritage/origins and I think she was mistaken to conflate nationality with heritage.

I'll try to explain.

There are many - myself included - who just don't have a clue what's acceptable and what isn't.

People of colour have been explaining for years, if not decades, what is and is not acceptable. They have been explaining how they experience racism and how it affects them
There are countless articles, MN threads, TV debates, etc etc which explain everything.
All we have to do is listen. That's it - just listen. They are not asking for a debate. Just listen.

I'll give you and equivalence. I don't know if you are a woman, but women for years, decades, even a century, have been explaining to men, the oppression, sexism, misogynism, we have experienced and how this makes us feel.
We have explained, debated and protested.
All men have to do is listen.
Yet some men - not all men - will still deny any sexism or oppression.
They will get angry, upset if you dare accuse them of sexist behaviour and say something like "It was just a joke/I was just asking, god you too sensitive. You women think eveything is sexist. Look at what you wearing, of course i was going to say that to you. I can't say anything without being accused of sexism, so I'm just not going to speak to you"

If a man said (to use use your words):
The nuances of perception are lost on most men, who just won't bother to speak for fear of being accused of sexism.
To be honest, I would tell him to get to fuck. Women have been explaining the "nuances" and if they won't listen then maybe its best they don't speak to women.

Women are not asking for a debate about what is or isn't sexism or misogyny. We know what it is, because we experience it all the time.

@LondonWolf I'll repeat myself then if it's so hard to understand (despite the numerous posts from others saying similar, across many threads).

what you shouldn't do is persistently goad away at that person if they clearly feel uncomfortable with your line of questioning.

And I haven't seen anyone tell you you shouldn't use a single opening sentence which is simply "where are you from"? If they have said this, then I don't agree with them.

And to reiterate @MovingOutofZone2 point:

If you ask someone where they’re from, for example, and they say ‘Hackney’, you go ‘okay’. And that’s that.
You don’t press them as to where they’re really from. You accept the information that the person gives and respect that if they wished to share additional information on the topic, they would have done so.

@minou123 Yes, exactly.

Women are not asking for a debate about what is or isn't sexism or misogyny. We know what it is, because we experience it all the time.

And I haven't seen anyone tell you you shouldn't use a single opening sentence which is simply "where are you from"? If they have said this, then I don't agree with them.

That's good to know because I have seen and been told repeatedly that the question in itself is offensive. It is often asserted on these kinds of threads and more widely across SM. It feels positive that several on here are saying otherwise

I accept that it's fine to ask but not to hound repeatedly for an answer. But I have seen examples where people have said even asking the Initial question is racist.

That fact that she works for a charity that supports women from the Caribbean - this was relevant though wasn't it?

Presumably the women who she supports are of Caribbean descent, but are British? But their origins are relevant to whether or not they receive support from the charity. Is it not reasonable for Fulani to be asked about her own heritage in a conversation?

That's good to know because I have seen and been told repeatedly that the question in itself is offensive. It is often asserted on these kinds of threads and more widely across SM. It feels positive that several on here are saying otherwise

Yes me too.

'Where are you from?' maybe reasonable. Where are you really from?' absolutely not. Never.

I’m a black woman from Jamaica but that lady hussey situation is a load of shite sorry. Why not just say where you from? She was looking stir up stuff..

I don't know how true this is - Twitter 🤷🏼‍♀️ but just read that LSH has long term attended a church in London with 90% POC attendance, some of them are dismissing claims she is racist. This new angle makes me wonder if her questioning was perhaps more over familiarity than "racism"

What’s wrong with asking where your really from? People ask me and I will say Shropshire. But then they will say no where do you originate from and I tell them. I’m sorry but their is nothing wrong that

I've not seen 'mulitiple' posts like this!
There really isn't agreement that her behaviour was 'fine'.

All from the same thread. She had an agenda, she set a trap, Lady H said nothing wrong.

There are dozens more on that thread alone (MN only allows 5 pics a post, but you get the gist) and there are multiple threads like this. So, you can choose to ‘not see’ the posts, but they’re still very much there.

Here is a typical example of what @LondonWolf and I are describing

But looking at the reporter conversation, that’s not what Lady S was asking – even though she was given the perfect opening:

Lady S: where are you from?
NF: Sistah Space
^ That’s when Lady S could then ask what does Sistah Space specialise in, what does NF do there, oh you work with women of Caribbean descent – is that a particular interest of yours? Could you tell me more about what kind of specialist support these women need? Etc.

Whereas what actually happened at that point was Lady S went off on a “but why are you Black?” interrogation. She didn’t connect Sistah Space’s work to NF’s heritage at any point.

If "where are you from?" is followed by "no but where are you really from?" Then yes it's racist. But this meme just has the initial question which PP have said is fine. Hence the confusion.

@stuntbubbles yes I can see that it would have been much better if she had gone down that route of questioning and it was unfortunate that she didn't.

Differences of opinion like this are a good thing, but fly in the face of what the OP wants?

What is it that I want?

And I’m still waiting for you to tell me for which African country a leopard print dress and brown cardigan constitutes ‘full national dress’.

Yeah, but where are you really from?

In your opinion, you mean? There is something wrong with it for a lot of people that experience it though, maybe not you. The "really" at best can be perceived as 'othering', and at worst racial harassment. It's most often used as a follow-up after that person has literally said where they're from, which in their eyes is where they're "really" from otherwise they would have willingly offered up their family's backstory.

Most people would never dream of probing a stranger again and again

I agree - I do wonder though, if an incident that Ngozi Fulani recounted to Hackney Museum in 2017 partially explains why the exchange between Ngozi and Lady Hussey was so drawn out;

Ngozi Fulani
I worked in a school and when I’d been there for three months and still after that time admin who didn’t know me or hadn’t seen me would approach me at the entrance of the building. “Can I help you?” I would of course say “No.” “Are you looking for somebody?” “No, thank you.” “Are you a parent?” “Well yes I am actually but not to children in this school.” “Well then I’m afraid you can’t come past here unless you’re a member of staff. Oh, are you kitchen staff?” “No.” “Are you domestic?” “No.” And then we’ll have this little gap, and then I’ll say, “I’m a teacher. It wouldn’t seem to occur to you that it’s possible for me to be part of the teaching staff.”

Was the admin staff member being racist asking someone they didn't know/ recognise, "Can I help you?" Why didn't Ngozi just reply, "I'm a teacher" or flash her name badge, or even introduce herself and strike up a friendly conversation? Why draw out the exchange with somewhat secretive, cryptic replies?

(NB - There are numerous examples of obvious racism in the interview as well.)

museum-collection.hackney.gov.uk/object-2018-54

The usual trajectory NF is now being decimated by Twitter all because she wouldn't respond in the way royalists would want. Apparently she armed herself ready to trap LH