To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

[MovingOutofZone2]

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine.

Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists.

I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness.

It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

Has anyone discussed Kanye West and his anti-semitism? Saying "I love Hitler" is a good example of something a racist says.

'People are supporting her behaviour on this very thread. There are multiple threads on MN right now, with people arguing her case. If you’ve missed all of this, then you’re not paying attention.'

There are people who don't want her burned as a witch working at explaining her rudeness ... but I don't think that this is the same as 'supporting her behaviour'.

I've not seen anyone suggesting it is acceptable to say:
'no, where do you really come from?' while meaning:
'you don't come from here because you are black'.

Do you actually want to have a conversation about this? As @BewareTheLibrarians has thoughtfully attempted to engage you in one, twice that I’ve seen, and you’ve ignored them both times. So, are you just here for a row?

Well yes. The multiple contradictions don't hold up to real scrutiny and so the very useful "educate yourself!" "Don't expect POC to do the work!" type of responses are just perfect aren't they? Their use has multiple benefits in that they're are designed to make you feel even worse and even more worried that you're being a racist and therefore too scared to ask anymore questions. So you slink away quiet and frightened and so the ideology grows.

You need to ask the questions though because if you do then others will too and with open and frank discussion we might actually get to place where actual racism is tackled and destroyed.

There are multiple people on both threads saying that her behaviour was fine and accusing Ngozi of everything from being oversensitive to having an agenda to (somehow) orchestrating the whole sorry affair. That is supporting Lady H’s behaviour.

I don't need need to be signposted elsewhere, but thanks anyway.

The point of my wading in was because the responses i was referring to are completely unhelpful. People should be able to ask questions without being sniped at (and the genuine questions going unanswered) - how else do they learn? Responses on ALL sides need to be considered and answered intelligently otherwise there is zero chance of anyone coming to any understanding and nothing changes.

If some feel it's not up to them to explain, that's fine, keep scrolling and don't answer the questions OR signpost them to other threads like you did. There's no need for backhanded comments with no real information or point of view to inform the poster.

It's a bit sad what's happend to kanye.

Hes gone from being live on nation tv declaring the president doesnt like black people, to praising Hitler

@MovingOutofZone2 yes I do want to have a conversation.

Re @BewareTheLibrarians on othering. I do understand the concept. I responded by saying that people might feel confused as to why she advocates exclusively for people from a particular heritage, but feels it is "violence" to be asked about her own heritage, with the caveat that heritage is not the same as nationality, which is where lady Hussey fell down. No one really responded to my point about that though.

Re @BewareTheLibrarians point about the work people from ethnic minorities doing in conversations- I felt we were a bit at crossed purposes there as I was talking about reparations for slavery and she was talking about the lady in waiting and so I'd felt the point had got a bit lost.

But I very much do want to have a constructive conversation.

The issue with racism and allegations of racism (or any perceived infarction) on a privately run website is the moderators can ban, or not can according to their policy.
So a person is banned.
They can rerun under different names.
Nothing is done to re-educate or tackle why they think the way they do.
This is the same in the criminal justice system. Jail the offender, then release a - racist who knows the only important thing. Don’t get caught next time.

It shines a little light on the views of white middle class England doesn’t it

I keep away from aibu

however I’ve seen this many time and totally support what you are saying

Please show me where you responded to and attempted to have a conversation with @BewareTheLibrarians. I’ve looked at all your responses after her attempts to engage you and I haven’t seen you respond to her once.

Most of the responses are either of the 'educate yourself' type or the poster's spin on what was said. Even the response that a poster didn't say what she was accused of is met with a snippy response of 'the actual words defense'.
Look, we can't tell what's going on in people's heads and how they will choose to interpret something said to them. If I asked someone where they were from (which I do, just about every day at work) that's what I am asking. If the person at the other end chooses to add layers of meaning around the slave trade for example to my question, that's their perogative. It doesn't mean I asked a racist question because they chose to interpret it as such.
I asked a straight question a while ago now and have had lots of responses around my intelligence and outrage that I should need to ask, but no-one has been courteous enough to attempt to answer it.
For clarity, I will ask again. How am I supposed to be interested in someone's culture if I can't ask them about it?

I do wonder how much of it is attached to trying to destroy his ex wife by association.

'There are multiple people on both threads saying that her behaviour was fine and accusing Ngozi of everything from being oversensitive to having an agenda to (somehow) orchestrating the whole sorry affair. That is supporting Lady H’s behaviour.'

I've not seen 'mulitiple' posts like this!
There really isn't agreement that her behaviour was 'fine'.

However I don't think it is a bad thing to see people posting: bringing bad ideas out into the light lets us challenge them and leaves the poster having to think again.

People don't learn anything by living with their untried prejudices unless their daily experience is going to help them think.

It looks as if Lady SH has lived in a place (a palace?) where such ideas have been undusted since the 1950s. (Perhaps Mumsnet ought to be in there offering the new brooms that bring enlightenment.)

Sorry that's about Kanye.

This really is a good summary but I don't think you'll get an answer to your question.

He has been saying anti-semitic things for years though. He's clearly mentally ill right now, but he always had these thoughts.

I just find it surprising on all these threads, one of the most famous men in the world says such anti-semitic things, and no one discusses it on any racism threads. Surely it's the biggest event in this space right now?

It's a good example of explicit or outright racism, but there is far more prevalent subtle racism (including on MN), which is just as damaging to those on the receiving end of it. Because it festers away until more and more people come out with the same tropes and racist remarks, and before you know it, it's somehow become an acceptable part of the discourse.

@MovingOutofZone2 this post of mine was a response to @BewareTheLibrarians who was addressing me and @Katypp - I quoted @Katypp - I didn't tag either of them as I don't always remember to do this so I apologise for that.

I do ask that you'd respond to the point I made though rather than policing who exactly I have engaged with and when!

A straight answer: asking isn’t the problem. The issue is not accepting the answer you’re given.

If you ask someone where they’re from, for example, and they say ‘Hackney’, you go ‘okay’. And that’s that.

You don’t press them as to where they’re really from. You accept the information that the person gives and respect that if they wished to share additional information on the topic, they would have done so.

For clarity, I will ask again. How am I supposed to be interested in someone's culture if I can't ask them about it?

You can, quite easily. Just ask them, politely. But what you shouldn't do is persistently goad away at that person if they clearly feel uncomfortable with your line of questioning.

I’m not policing anything. I’m pointing out the ludicrousness of complaining that nobody wants to engage in conversation with you when you’ve ignored attempts to engage you in conversation. It makes it fairly clear that you don’t actually want a conversation.

@BewareTheLibrarians post to you said

I wonder if you’re familiar with the concept of ‘othering’? What wasn’t in good faith or generous was the repeated questioning of where M’s Fulani was “really” from. She answered that she was from Hackney. When asked what part of Africa her family was from, she replied that she didn’t know as no records were left. Despite that she was questioned again.How is that polite or respectful? How is that not showing someone that despite being born in the UK and British, they are still an ‘other’?

The above addresses nothing within that post, quotes another poster and (as you’ve stated), you didn’t tag her. You also didn’t respond to her other comment directed at you. However, you’ve posted multiple times complaining that nobody wants to engage with you. This is not the behaviour of someone attempting to engage in good faith debate and is why people are going to mostly ignore you.

@starfro I take your point but there was a recent thread on here re antisemitism which ended up a sewer of antisemitism and racism, and clearly distressed a lot of people on the receiving end of it. That's probably why no one wants to start a new thread on it.

And yet elsewhere we are told repeatedly that the very asking of this question is distressing to the respondent and fundamentally racist.

I've read the transcript of what Lady SH said and I did cringe, she sounded beyond annoying and the repetitive seeking of an answer was embarrassing. It must have been excruciating to be in the moment with that - if it happened exactly that way - however I do not believe the asking of the basic question is in itself racist, for me it is genuine interest, I have a slightly interesting background myself, spent most of my life in another country and actually felt foreign and culturally out of place in the UK when I had to return. Took a long time to settle back in despite being English. I'll talk about my love of that country I spent most of my life in, to anyone who will listen if they ask, so it is good to see some posters confirm this.

I’ve seen her behaviour described on Mumsnet as like “an endearing granny”.

And plenty of posts saying it’s acceptable to ask over and over because Ms Fulani: was wearing African dress (she wasn’t), “ethnic regalia”, works for a charity that supports women from the Caribbean, wore a “non-British hairstyle” (that poster refused to clarify what a British hairstyle looked like).

I’ve seen posts deeming Lady S’s interrogation as acceptable because: it’s her job, she has to tell the Queen Consort something, aren’t we all curious, it’s natural to keep asking, of course she thought Ms Fulani was from somewhere else – because of what she wore.

Then there’s been the posts blaming Ngozi Fulani for: being evasive, sly, hostile, disingenuous, difficult (all words used by posters, not me); and saying she should have, from the off, answered with “I’m from Britain but my parents were from the Caribbean”, without acknowledging that white people never introduce themselves with “I’m from Nottingham but my mum’s from Kettering”.

Lady S’s behaviour has repeatedly been described as acceptable by way of victim blaming Fulani: “of course it’s OK to ask someone with that hairstyle/that dress/that job why they’re Black and claiming to be British”. It’s insidious and it’s all over the boards.